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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 9:45:20 GMT -8
I just realized that I do not know anything of the church history. Nor do I know when who came on the scene or what century certain beliefs transpired. Some things I do know but not all. Last night I started reading a book called, "Church History" by Andrew Miller. He was a Plymouth Brethren. He takes right from the gospels to the churches in the book of Revelation and down through the years until the 20th century. He also includes some of the Eastern Orthodox churches. However not much is said on those ones. It is more on the Western mindset and the churches that came about from there.
One thing that I do know is that majority of the denominations did come from Roman Catholic and their mindset. Even to the ones from today, if one were to really think about it they would see they all came from the RCC.
Is there not one church or group that did not come from the RCC or their mindset?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 8, 2014 10:07:10 GMT -8
Even if there were, and this is one place the book you are reading will probably distort the truth, all Christian churches are rooted in paganism, not Judaism. The early "church Fathers" were all pagans, and none of them followed the teachings of Yeshua or the apostles. It is no accident that the Catholic Church adopted so many pagan rites.
The true 1st cen. "church" were the Natsarim. They were Jews and Jewish proselytes. They attended Jewish synagogues until disowned and forced out after the Bar Kochba Revolt. Then they started their own synagogues. They did not compromise with paganism, with very few notable exceptions. They persisted in the face of horrendous persecution from both the Catholic Church and the Jews to an extent into the 4th and possibly 5th cen. CE.
The "early church" is a 2nd cen. and on phenomenon. And they existed wholly apart from the Natsarim. To my knowledge not one "church father" ever was a member of the sect of the Natsarim. So any way you slice it, the Christian churches are firmly rooted in paganism. They still hold to many of the pagan practices even since the so called "Protestant Reformation." Luther protested some but none since him have.
Dan C
Edit: there are some denominations which are a mixture of Ebionism and the occult or CHristian paganism. The Ebionites did split off from the Natsarim very early in the 1st cen. But they are no less pagan and wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 10:31:25 GMT -8
Thank you Alon for sharing your thoughts. I am aware that most Christian churches have adopted pagan ways, even if they do not want to admit to it.
It is interesting that you brought up about the Protestant Reformation.
My husband the other day was in a Christian chat room and someone asked him if he was Catholic or Protestant. My husband's answer was, "I am a disciple of Jesus Christ" And again the person asked him if he were Catholic or Protestant. And again he stated that he was a disciple of Jesus Christ. Than he stated that there is no such thing as Catholic or Protestant for the believers in Christ. And he also challenged the person to show him in the bible where Catholic or Protestant is ever mentioned.
My husband does have a point. Catholic and Protestant mindset came from man, not God.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 8, 2014 10:40:14 GMT -8
Very true, and it sounds as though he is trying. However if he is steeped in "Christian" dogma then he is still wrong. I pray continually that both our spouses will come to and accept the truth, as I pray we all will be led in the truth as well.
I won't speculate about at what point salvation is lost. Certainly if they see we are right and refuse but beyond that I don't have a clue. Best case would be they accept and are assured. It does bother me, not only for my wife but my entire family.
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 12:39:56 GMT -8
We are not God so we can't really judge if the person has lost their salvation or not. We are told to work out OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling. So one must be fearful of staying with the faith of God's word, not man's word. And nor can I say that my husband has lost his salvation because he chooses not to believe that we need to follow the laws of God. That is between him and God.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Jul 8, 2014 17:05:21 GMT -8
Very true, and it sounds as though he is trying. However if he is steeped in "Christian" dogma then he is still wrong. I pray continually that both our spouses will come to and accept the truth, as I pray we all will be led in the truth as well.
I won't speculate about at what point salvation is lost. Certainly if they see we are right and refuse but beyond that I don't have a clue. Best case would be they accept and are assured. It does bother me, not only for my wife but my entire family.
Dan C
None of us are saved by our actions, but only our trust in Yehoshua. That trust requires demonstration of certain actions that many MainC Christians do attempt, and succeed in performing admirably. They are walking by faith, and not by rote. And yes, it is important that they come to learn all of  , but Messianics seem to be pounding so hard that they do not show people who say that they believe in and trust in Yehoshua, and love Him enough to try to please Him by acting as He acted. It would be far easier to show them the Torah in the Brit CHadashah, where it would make an impression on the, rather than saying, 'But it's the commandments of G-d!"
They are not against obedience to God-s desires...they are against the desires of men in dictating what they should do and think, and they have been taught that the Brit Chadashah carries the best instructions for their behavior.
They are not entirely wrong...the Brit Chadashah carries more examples and discussion of how to walk in righteousness, and follow in Yehoshua's footsteps, and often does a much better job of expressing to Gentiles because much of it was written to tell Jews how to walk appropriately in the after one has received the Gospel, been baptized, and received the Ruach. The rest is about Yehoshua, and what He did and said.
Before you can get a MainC Believer to see that the underlies every direction in the Brit Chadashah by linking the examples in the New Testament to the underlying support from the . Until obedience is taught not because it is , but because it is Yehoshua's desire, MainC Christians will not hear what you are trying to say. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 18:28:47 GMT -8
I agree with you Questor.
These verses comes to mind.
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20
When I read this I believe that yes there will be Born again Christians in heaven who do stand for the word of God and fight to keep the truth of the word of God, even though they may not agree to the laws of God.
So because my husband stands and teaches the word of God and yet does not believe that we need to keep the law, does this mean that he will go to hell. I don't believe so.
Alon, at times you mention that your Pastor at the AOG teaches good teaching but he may not agree to the law of God or that he should keep them, does this mean that he will still go to hell? I think not.
Because how I understand the verses is that even those who teach against the law of God will still have a place in heaven. They will just be called the least in heaven.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 8, 2014 19:41:32 GMT -8
That passage from Mat 5:19 is one that gives me hope as well.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
