Obedience: the Missing Link

[alon]

I'm putting this in its own thread, although there are several threads it is applicable to. It is something I've been looking for, but not been able to satisfactorily get clear in my mind. Then I happened on a darash by Rico Cortes on you tube and the tumblers all fell into place! So these are my notes, in several posts.

I apologize for the length. In fact, I'm going to report myself and give admin a chance to take it off if they think it is a violation. But there've been several of these of late, and this is about as far as I could strip it down and still get the point across.

I also want to say that this is necessarily negative towards mainstream Christianity as well as much of Messianism- all of us who have missed out this critical part of the salvation message. It is part of the questioning process that defines a Messianic believer and separates us from the dogma of destruction we were all taught.

Hope it helps someone, and /or sparks some discussion.

Dan C

[alon]

The Confession of Faith, notes from darash by Rico Cortes


As Christians, we were told that all we had to do to be saved is to speak a confession that “Jesus is Lord.” This confession is important, but it is not the entire truth.
• conditions of obedience are seldom mentioned
• obedience is how we please the Father and maintain our salvation

Rom 10:9 “ that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered”
• This is the passage most often quoted to support the mainstream view
• But we need to understand who Paul was in order to understand this statement

In Acts 23:6, Paul says "Brothers, I myself am a Parush and the son of P'rushim;”

If we don’t understand the 1st cen. Rabbis, it is easy to take Rom 10:9 out of context and misunderstand Acts 21: 20+24 “On hearing it, they praised God; but they also said to him, "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans, and they are all zealots for the . … you yourself stay in line and keep the .”
• so there were thousands of Jews who had believed and were still zealous for over 20 yrs after Yeshua,
• and Paul still kept the Law

Acts 28:23 “ So they arranged a day with him and came to his quarters in large numbers. From morning until evening he explained the matter to them, giving a thorough witness about the Kingdom of God and making use of both the of Moshe and the Prophets to persuade them about Yeshua”
• Paul used and the TNK to persuade the Jews to Yeshua
• The TNK was all they had for about 300 yrs after Yeshua
o not until Council of Nicea was NT gathered and canonized
o this account, being written after the fact was to become part of that cannon

We are taught that we are a part of ‘Spiritual Israel’
• when we ‘come to Jesus’ we are ‘part of the “church”,’ as defined by our ‘church fathers’
• problem- the Greek word “ecclesia” is same as the Hebrew word “kehal”
o both mean church, assembly
o is deliberately mistranslated as assembly in OT, church in NT

[alon]

Mat 5:17-19 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the -- not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
• Yeshua is very clear here about observance
• “complete” is usually translated as ‘fulfill’, which is intentionally misunderstood as to do away with
o Strongs 4137 pleroo- complete, make complete; fulfill, meet the specified terms and obligations

Deu 18: 15-19 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. Whoever doesn't listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.”
• Messiah must teach the same things as Moses- the Law
• Yeshua, in His teachings, did not change anything
o He gave the original intent
o explained the meanings
o He ‘fulfilled’ the Word

Mat 5:17 is saying “I came to make the Law full of meaning; to tell you of the Law; to meet the conditions of the Law”

If:
• you know who Yeshua is
• you know who Paul was
• and you accept Yeshua

Then: you will want to keep the commandments

Eph 2:11-22 “11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised - 12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra'el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God. 13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom - he has made us both one and has broken down the m'chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the , with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity. 17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, b 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!

[alon]

We are part of Isra’el- not just “the church!”
• note: in vs. 15, the word ‘ordinances’ is talking about the laws of man, not
• when this was written, the citizens and fellowshipers with God were mostly Jews
o Gentiles were being adopted in
• The ‘mixed crowd’ or ‘mixed multitude’ who went out of Egypt with Moses had to have either:
o believed and put the blood of a slain lamb on their own doorposts
o or had to have attached themselves to a Hebrew family and partook of the Passover with them

1 Cor 10:11 “ These things happened to them as prefigurative historical events, and they were written down as a warning to us who are living in the acharit-hayamim.”
• Paul is telling us that the pattern is the same
• these things are written for our edification
o we should learn from the mistakes of those who came before us
o believe and act in trust
• has more to do with us today than it does with our past

Ex 12:48-49 “48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."

Num 15:16 “ The same and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.”
• So there is one law for everyone who would attach themselves to Isra’el

[alon]

Those who say “we just have to have faith, like Abraham,” implying Abraham had no Law, also have a problem:
Gen 26:5 “All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do -he followed my mitzvot, my regulations and my teachings."
• So we see Abraham did have mitzvoth/commandments/laws!

Rom 10:1-4 “Brothers, my heart's deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra'el is for their salvation; for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; for, since they are unaware of God's way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God's way of making people righteous. For the goal at which the aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.
• ‘goal’, Greek ‘telos’, is the correct translation to give proper meaning here
• often translated “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness,” which we’ve been taught to misunderstand as the end of the law
o correct understanding is obviously ‘end’ as in a desired outcome, a mark to aim at; a goal
• Properly understood, Messiah is the goal of the law, not the end of the law

The following two passages essentially say the same thing:
Deu 30:11-14 “For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!”
Rom 10:5-9 “For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the that the person who does these things will attain life through them. Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend to heaven?'" that is, to bring the Messiah down - or, "'Who will descend into Sh'ol?'" that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. What, then, does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart."l that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.”
• Paul is saying that the plan of salvation/confession of faith today is the same as that in !
• ‘acknowledge,’ often translated ‘confession’- Greek homologoheo- means ‘covenant’
o so is saying “if you make covenant with your mouth Yeshua is Lord”
• so we are coming into covenant, just as Abraham did
o yet we are at the same time taught to break that covenant by disavowing !

If you are going to persuade someone to accept Yeshua, then you ar responsible to teach them to come into covenant with God just as Abraham did, and just as Moses did at Sinai

[alon]

Ex 19:5 “Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine; “

Gen 26:5 “All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do -he followed my mitzvot, my regulations and my teachings."

Deu 28:1 "If you listen closely to what ADONAI your God says, observing and obeying all his mitzvot which I am giving you today, ADONAI your God will raise you high above all the nations on earth; “
• Pattern:
o pay careful attention to Gods Word
o obedience, keep our covenant
• We need to study and keep the commandments of God to stay in covenant with Him

Ex 19:4-8 “'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.'These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra'el." Moshe came, summoned the leaders of the people and presented them with all these words which ADONAI had ordered him to say. All the people answered as one, "Everything ADONAI has said, we will do."
• Isra’el married God, although they had not yet heard His commandments
o as His bride, they were obligated to obey Him
o we, as His bride are also under the same obligation
• we must tell people they must believe and trust in God, accept and love Him only
o but we must also prepare and equip them to be obedient to Him
o this means following !
o this is what separated us, makes us holy!

Gen 3:6 “When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate.”
• ‘confession’ by your mouth is important
o it was through the mouth that sin entered when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit

Ex 34:8-10 “At once Moshe bowed his head to the ground, prostrated himself and said, "If I have now found favor in your view, Adonai, then please let Adonai go with us, even though they are a stiffnecked people; and pardon our offenses and our sin; and take us as your possession." He said, "Here, I am making a covenant; in front of all your people …”
• we are inequitouse and in need of redemption
• we are saved, but not given the commandments and too often fall away into sin
• Isra’el accepted the covenant relationship before hearing the Law
o even as God gave the Law to Moses, they fell into worshiping the gods of Egypt
o basically, they fell into adultery even before the consummation of their vows
• so too we are ‘saved,’ but not given the commandments or told we need to obey them
o all too often we fall away into sin and become as adulterers before God
• as soon as we accept God we are taught:
o not to keep
o to break Shabbat
o to not keep the feasts
o to observe pagan practices
• we are led astray by false teachings

Deu 30:11-14 is saying exactly the same thing as Rom 10:5-9
• Paul was giving a midrash- a better understanding

[alon]

Acts 15:21 “For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."
• since the things Moses said, the , were taught every Shabbat in Synagogue, we should learn there

Eph 2:19 “So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family.”
• the covenant was given to us, the Gentiles, not just the Jews
o we are in a covenant relationship with God when we accept Him, same as being married

Jer 31:3-321 “"Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI.

Heb 8:8-9 “ For God does find fault with the people when he says, "'See! The days are coming,' says ADONAI, 'when I will establish over the house of Isra'el and over the house of Y'hudah a new covenant. "'It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,' says ADONAI.”
• here, where God talks about making a new covenant, Gentiles are nowhere mentioned
o is why Paul in Rom 11 goes into such detail about grafting the olive branches- you/we agree to become a part of Isra’el, grafted into His household
o otherwise, you have no part in His kingdom

The evidence of this grafting, that you’ve made a new covenant, is that you walk in obedience to .


This is absolutely what separates a Observant Messianic believer, whether from a Jewish or Gentile background, from the morass of popular religions, cults and those who seek but never quite find the truth. We are observant because we are His bride; obedient and set apart for Him.


Dan C

[Deleted]

Alon, too much info for this brain.

"As Christians, we were told that all we had to do to be saved is to speak a confession that “Jesus is Lord.” This confession is important, but it is not the entire truth.
• conditions of obedience are seldom mentioned
• obedience is how we please the Father and maintain our salvation"

This I can agree with. There is no prompting of repenting from ones sins or to be obedient is part of having eternal life. Being obedient to a Holy God goes along with it.

As for the rest, sigh, well time to think and ponder.

Moriah Ruth

[Frank T. Clark]

Obedience! Yes! I love the song "Trust and Obey". There is no other way.

[Questor]

Feb 3, 2014 12:15:09 GMT -8 alon said:

Acts 15:21 “For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."
• since the things Moses said, the , were taught every Shabbat in Synagogue, we should learn there

Eph 2:19 “So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family.”
• the covenant was given to us, the Gentiles, not just the Jews
o we are in a covenant relationship with God when we accept Him, same as being married

Jer 31:3-321 “"Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI.

Heb 8:8-9 “ For God does find fault with the people when he says, "'See! The days are coming,' says ADONAI, 'when I will establish over the house of Isra'el and over the house of Y'hudah a new covenant. "'It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,' says ADONAI.”
• here, where God talks about making a new covenant, Gentiles are nowhere mentioned
o is why Paul in Rom 11 goes into such detail about grafting the olive branches- you/we agree to become a part of Isra’el, grafted into His household
o otherwise, you have no part in His kingdom

The evidence of this grafting, that you’ve made a new covenant, is that you walk in obedience to .


This is absolutely what separates a Observant Messianic believer, whether from a Jewish or Gentile background, from the morass of popular religions, cults and those who seek but never quite find the truth. We are observant because we are His bride; obedient and set apart for Him.


Dan C

Or want to, and are learning how. 

I think what scares so many people away from , and performing the Mitzvot is the enormity of the idea that one takes on the entire yoke of Judaism.
And yet, when you go to the simplicity of what is written in the , absent the Mishna and the Talmud, and simply go through the commandments as given, they are not difficult.

Acts 15:7-11 (CJB)
7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us;
9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust.
10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear?
11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”




But Kefa is also saying in the very next line that the yoke of keeping was an onerous one, and one which was not able to be kept by their fathers.  

My opinion is that those who are in mainC take this (Acts 15:10) as a reason for operating on Grace alone...that the could not be kept in full perfection except by YHVH (Or His arm in Yeshua).  That was done purposefully, to reveal sin, and the requirement of Grace in Yeshua to get around our faulty, broken, human selves.  Yeshua was being forced to say over and over again that without obedience, it meant nothing.

John 14:15-21 (CJB)

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

16 and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforting Counselor like me, the Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever.

17 The world cannot receive him, because it neither sees nor knows him. You know him, because he is staying with you and will be united with you.

18 I will not leave you orphans — I am coming to you.

19 In just a little while, the world will no longer see me; but you will see me. Because I live, you too will live.

20 When that day comes, you will know that I am united with my Father, and you with me, and I with you.

21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

One cannot have salvation through obedience alone.  Else why Yeshua?  One needs the grace of YHVH just to keep the , and even that is a gift due to our relationship with Him, just as Yeshua was a gift to us, as without Him we would never, and could never do enough to keep the in all its fullness.


And yet, without obedience, you would see us all, at the return of Mashiach, saying: Lord, Lord, and hearing:


Matthew 7:23 (CJB)

23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

[Yedidyah]

One cannot have salvation through obedience alone. Else why Yeshua? One needs the grace of YHVH just to keep the , and even that is a gift due to our relationship with Him, just as Yeshua was a gift to us, as without Him we would never, and could never do enough to keep the in all its fullness.

Questor are you saying that all those who were called Righteous in the and Tenakh had Yeshua?
What you have done is show that Grace was far before Yeshua. There are many reasons why Messiah had to come, there are many reasons why Messiah must come again but salvation is a walk throughout ones lifetime not something that comes with a magical prayer like so many teach.

[alon]

Feb 7, 2014 1:31:55 GMT -8 Questor said:

Or want to, and are learning how.

I think what scares so many people away from , and performing the Mitzvot is the enormity of the idea that one takes on the entire yoke of Judaism. And yet, when you go to the simplicity of what is written in the , absent the Mishna and the Talmud, and simply go through the commandments as given, they are not difficult.

Acts 15:7-11 (CJB) "7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust. "8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us; that is, he made no distinction between us and them, butcleansed their heart by trust. 10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear? 11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”

But Kefa is also saying in the very next line that the yoke of keeping was an onerous one, and one which was not able to be kept by their fathers. My opinion is that those who are in mainC take this (Acts 15:10) as a reason for operating on Grace alone...that the could not be kept in full perfection except by YHVH (Or His arm in Yeshua). That was done purposefully, to reveal sin, and the requirement of Grace in Yeshua to get around our faulty, broken, human selves. Yeshua was being forced to say over and over again that without obedience, it meant nothing.

If we show them that they do not have to take on the entire yoke of Judaism all at once then we successfully remove this excuse. In fact, this is just another good example of cherry-picking verses and assigning their own beliefs to them. As usually is the case, simply reading a bit further gives the answer:

Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren , listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

So it is James judgment that the new gentile believers be given a very easy place to start (vs.20), and that they learn the rest slowly (vs. 21) as they are faithful to attend synagogue where these things are taught every Shabbath.

DanC

[Questor]

Feb 7, 2014 10:19:23 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

One cannot have salvation through obedience alone. Else why Yeshua? One needs the grace of YHVH just to keep the , and even that is a gift due to our relationship with Him, just as Yeshua was a gift to us, as without Him we would never, and could never do enough to keep the in all its fullness.

Questor are you saying that all those who were called Righteous in the and Tenakh had Yeshua?
What you have done is show that Grace was far before Yeshua. There are many reasons why Messiah had to come, there are many reasons why Messiah must come again but salvation is a walk throughout ones lifetime not something that comes with a magical prayer like so many teach.

Yedidyah, I was saying many things in the entire post, including that Grace and Mercy are a gift of YHVH, and He gives it to whom He chooses.

Romans 9:15-16 (CJB)

15 For to Moshe he says, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will pity whom I pity.”

16 Thus it doesn't depend on human desires or efforts, but on God, who has mercy.



From Abraham onwards there have been commandments and ordinances.  Trusting YHVH was the key element to YHVH for granting grace, and the state of Righteousness in G-d's sight, then to Isaac, to Jacob and to the Israelites, even when they were in Egypt.

Once the Israelites were in the wilderness, and received the , implemented the Tabernacle, and broke a commandment, sinning, there was a sacrifice that could be made that would remove the stain of the sin from the sinner, and make him righteous again.  The sacrifice triggered grace and mercy from YHVH, as it was a sign of repentence in the sinner, that he would change, and be more careful to keep the commandments, turning back to walking in righteousness.  Later there was a Temple, carrying on this mode of forgiveness through repentence, sacrifice and a re-dedication to obeying YHVH.  This was grace, as is all grace...a gift from Abba.

When there is no Temple, whether it was in Babylon, or since AD 70, and thus no way to receive forgiveness and return to righteousness in YHVH's eyes, I assume there was a doubling down of the care by each Israelite to keep the , and the doing of good deeds to the poor, and the fatherless, to the elderly, and to the community, in trust that YHVH would forgive their transgression.  Whether that is acceptable to YHVH I don't know, but I assume that the trust in YHVH, and the increased faithfulness to perform the Mitzvot, and a lot of sincere repentence would be taken into consideration.  I am not YHVH, so I cannot judge whether the covenant between the Israelites was considered broken under those conditions.

But after Yeshua, there was a way.  Repentence, and a return to obedience to the commandments of YHVH certainly, but now a commitment to Yeshua to become personally engaged to G-d, and to prepare oneself as a bride does to please her husband, and in return, those people who committed, or recommitted to YHVH through Yeshua, they received righteousness in Yeshua's death, and the enabling grace from the Ruach when they were infillled with the Ruach to actually perform the Mitzvot.  Those who asked Yeshua to come into their lives and transform them were in the first two generations after Yeshua's death and resurrection commited to become as obedient as possible, to the , and to how Yeshua described obeying the commandments in love, and were changed by the Ruach haKodesh, little by little, closer to the image of Yeshua.

This is not what is being done in most mainC assemblies.  They do indeed rely on carefully chosen words that begin the process for any Believer in Yeshua.  We should invite Yeshua into our lives, be immersed, and pray to receive the infilling of the Ruach haKodesh.  And indeed, most mainC assemblies do this part, although they are not always letting the new Believers know what they are doing, what they are committing to, and how they should begin to walk to be pleasing to YHVH.


When I began my walk with Yeshua some 43 years ago, I was baptised without knowing what any of it was about, except in the vaguest way.  Not being brought up in any religion, I was pagan to the bone, and even figuring out what a Believer should know and do was very difficult to me.  When I was told that I was to begin speaking in tongues the moment I surfaced in the big pool, I didn't even know what they were talking about. ( I was later blessed to have the full infilling of the Ruach many years later, and to speak and sing in tongues, but not until about 17 years ago.)

The church people scared me, and the Adversary took the opportunity to make me see those poor, well meaning folks as evil, and by see, I mean they appeared to be evil.  My first vision, handed off to me by the Adversary at the age of 15.  I immediately moved into the occult, and found some nice, 'normal' people there.  But despite my intermittent interest in palm reading, in divination from tarot cards, and such like, I never could get very far in the occult, because the Ruach was guarding me.

You see, I did very much want to believe at that immersion, and to have a relationship with Yeshua, and so Yeshua hung onto me as I walked a very dangerous path.

I never have been back to any church for long...there is nothing there for me.  I have been studying for the last 23 years...in books, in lectures, in sermons, but mostly in the Tanakh and the Brit Chadishah. But I have studied the era of Yeshua, read many of the Church Fathers, Josephus, and many books on dividing the word.

It was fortunate for me that I was so little taught in the years prior to my immersion that I merely read the Scriptures, and being nothing if not curious, began at the beginning, in Bereshit.  I only had a vague idea of who Yeshua was, but I understood the .  Some of it didn't seem to apply to me, since we were missing a Temple, and I didn't live in Israel, but the parts that did apply, I tried to do.  Not very well, as I had no mentor, and anything having to do with YHVH in my family was met with dead silence, dispproval, and a swift change of subject, but I was willing to learn, and the Holy Spirit got some knowledge and understanding in here and there.


Most new Believers in mainC Churches are in the same boat, although they may not have any experience with the occult, and I doubt they have read the Scriptures before they went to a Church.  They know little, and are taught less, although there are good pastors out there...I listen to several.  But they do not pay much attention to as commandments, except for the well know Ten Commandments first given to the Israelites at Sinai. They do keep a Sabbath, it's just the Greco-Roman version.  

MainC Churches that are teaching obedience to Yeshua, as is written in the Brit Chadasha go about learning what to obey solely from the Brit Chadasha, and the Ten Commandments.  Someone who is well schooled in the Brit Chadasha seeks to do all things that are spoken there, and many Christians are obeying some of the commandments in the ...they are just unaware of it, but then, there are some 2000 references to the in the Brit Chadasha, so those that are taught well do walk well, and are led by the hand of the Holy Spirit.  And at the point of reaching a good walk in the Brit Chadasha, they are likely to find themselves being tugged gently by the Ruach haKodesh into looking at the .

I dislike much of mainstream Christianity, mostly because very few pastors seem to know what they are supposed to be teaching these days.  They didn't teach it very well in my youth either.  The Evil One has had full sway in America since 1963, when they took the Ten Commandments out of the Schoolrooms, and the Public Square...what most people do not know is that the Ten Commandments were removed from many churches at the same time.


As to your question about whether the Israelites prior to Yeshua had Him, I say yes, they did.  

They were looking forward to Maschiach then, as now.  And since Yeshua is a seperated part of YHVH, the Israelites did indeed have Him in their midst...YHVH was there.

[Questor]

Feb 7, 2014 11:40:25 GMT -8 alon said:

Feb 7, 2014 1:31:55 GMT -8 Questor said:

Or want to, and are learning how.

I think what scares so many people away from , and performing the Mitzvot is the enormity of the idea that one takes on the entire yoke of Judaism. And yet, when you go to the simplicity of what is written in the , absent the Mishna and the Talmud, and simply go through the commandments as given, they are not difficult.

Acts 15:7-11 (CJB) "7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust. "8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us; that is, he made no distinction between us and them, butcleansed their heart by trust. 10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear? 11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”

But Kefa is also saying in the very next line that the yoke of keeping was an onerous one, and one which was not able to be kept by their fathers. My opinion is that those who are in mainC take this (Acts 15:10) as a reason for operating on Grace alone...that the could not be kept in full perfection except by YHVH (Or His arm in Yeshua). That was done purposefully, to reveal sin, and the requirement of Grace in Yeshua to get around our faulty, broken, human selves. Yeshua was being forced to say over and over again that without obedience, it meant nothing.

Feb 7, 2014 11:40:25 GMT -8 alon said:

If we show them that they do not have to take on the entire yoke of Judaism all at once then we successfully remove this excuse. In fact, this is just another good example of cherry-picking verses and assigning their own beliefs to them.

Yes, but not just cherry-picking verses...cherry picking whole concepts by deliberately ignoring every word that Yeshua Himself said about obedience.

What your 'Drash showed was how the Christian side of Belief in Yeshua completely disregard that Yeshua, and the Apostles were Jews, speaking to Jews, not to Gentiles.  That didn't come about very quickly at all, and obedience to was a given!

If we do not read and study the totality of the Scriptures until there is a complete gestault of how they go together, Tanakh with Brit Chadasha, we miss the entire message. YHVH has chosen to have mercy on many who would otherwise never find it.  In Yeshua, there is Salvation, even if the obedience is poor because the teaching is poor.  I am grateful that many will come in by faith, and trust in Yeshua that would never have been thought of even in Yeshua's day.

A few years before my Father died, I had managed to get him to consider the message of Yeshua, but when I pressed on the obedience part of it, he said, oddly enough, that he would be happy to be sweeping the streets of gold in the New Jerusalem.  And I had never caught or understood at that time that part in Mathew where it says that whoever does things wrongly, and teaches them, will be among the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:18-19 (CJB)

18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.


It gives me hope that I may see him again, although not a very strong one.  Yet, he was brought up in a Presbyterian church, was an Alter Boy (A Presbyterian is very much like an Anglican - Catholic without images) was immersed in his church, and I saw that he walked a pretty good walk for never having picked up a bible...Generous, kind, helpful to others, was even quite moral for these treacherous days.  My Mother being of Catholic upbringing, perhaps that is why G-d was a forbidden topic...I won't know until the Bema, or the White Throne Judgement.

Feb 7, 2014 11:40:25 GMT -8 alon said:

As usually is the case, simply reading a bit further gives the answer:

Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren , listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

So it is James judgment that the new gentile believers be given a very easy place to start (vs.20), and that they learn the rest slowly (vs. 21) as they are faithful to attend synagogue where these things are taught every Shabbath.


DanC

Unfortunately, as soon as the 2nd century ended, there was no one that wanted to go to a synagogue anymore to hear what they needed to hear.

In 201, political matters were driving a legal wedge between those called Christians, and the Followers of the Way of the Nazarene that were considered to be Jews.

After the Bar Kochba rebellion, the Jewishness of the Way of the Nazarenes triggered an ever escalating persecution of those who still followed , kept the Sabbath on Saturday, and kept the feasts. And worst, the Christians were adding in all the philosophies of the Greeks. Plato had a terrible effect on Christianity, especially through Augustine, not to mention all the various gnostic fancies people tried to bring into the Way of the Nazarenes, who were, so far as they understood matters, still Jews.

As it was, by the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion in 136 AD, the original apostles were gone, and the Rabbi's that were direct talmudim of the Apostles were gone as well. There were many Jews who still followed the Way of the Nazarene, but so far as anyone can tell, they were being killed off at the time of Constantine in the 300's.

And yet, the Ruach haKodesh still used what was available, and hid it all in the Scriptures, and about 1200 years later, there was a new flowering of interest in the Scriptures, and after even more centuries, here we are, in the lead up to the Day of Jacob's trouble, and people who begin in Christianity are being led by the Ruach haKodesh into a disturbing (to the Christian and his family and friends) tendency to focus on the Tanakh at least as much as the Brit Chadasha.

It is strange, but one might almost think that it was planned this way...?