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Post by cindy1960 on Aug 30, 2013 19:20:38 GMT -8
Hi. My name is Cindy and I am from QLD Australia. I have studied with 7DA and COG and JW and they have taught me many different truths but was finally baptised a year ago with 7DA as they were the ones that seem to turn up in my life over and over again, long story. But I wasn't happy with their explanation of the 3 days and nights of Christs buriel, which me led me to this forum as I have been asking a few people from different denominations and one lady suggested I should join a messianic forum and here I am. So my question is, if Jesus did in fact die on a Wednesday, and it was preparation for the annual Sabbath, and the women were preparing oils and ointments just before the beginning of Sabbath, why did they wait till the Sunday to go visit Christs tomb instead of the Friday? Friday was in between both Sabbaths so why did they not go see him as soon as the annual Sabbath was over and before the weekly one began? The way bible explains is was like no days in between. They were preparing the oils just before sunset of the Sabbath, then on the first day of the week, being ~Sunday they went to bring them oils to where His body was laid. Sounds like there were no other days between. Sounds like there is only one Sabbath day in there. Blessing to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Post by visionary on Aug 31, 2013 12:14:03 GMT -8
Here is the list of confusing verses regarding this issue of figuring out this particular time period in Yeshua's life. He left the tomb before sunrise on the first day of the week. Notice the words "while it was still dark". Days begin and end at sundown. Therefore when it says "early the first of the week while it was still dark", could mean any time after sundown. At the center of this controversy is the fact that Matthew quote Yeshua saying that He will be in the ground for three days and three nights. Three days and three nights would constitute 72 hours, since there are 24 hours in a whole day. Yeshua Himself said . He was buried in the end of "preparation day" of Chag haMatzah (the feast of unleavened bread). On this day the final chamatz (leavening) is removed for disposal at the temple. He was buried before the Sabbath which was "an high day", not the weekly Sabbath.On the day after his crucifixion (Nisan 15), after only one night, the Jewish authorities went to Pilate and said: They would not have gone and did this on a shabbat, neither the feast nor the weekly day of rest. Passover is not a day but a commanded observance which takes only maybe three to four hours. It occurs just before or at the beginning of the first day of Chag haMatzah (the feast of unleavened bread). The Passover can be slaughtered anytime between the evenings beginning and ending the 14th day of Nissan. The Disciples slaughtered the Passover lamb for Yeshua's final meal on the 14th day of Nissan as the day began, at sunset on the 13th. This makes it a kosher Pesach Seder. It certainly wasn't the normal time for the Seder, but was legitimate none the less. As you and I are both aware, Yeshua would not be alive to convey the new symbolisms from the Seder at its regular time so their Seder was by necessity done the previous evening. In the first month of the calendar, the fourteenth day of the month, [beyn haarbayim] between the evenings is the acceptable time for Passover to God. What is glorious is that it is the sign. Another part of your question was about Mark 16:1, Mary Magdalene and her companions did not buy their spices to anoint the body of Yeshua until after the Sabbath was past. They could not prepare them until after this shabbat rest yet after preparing the spices they rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment! (Luke 23:56). There is only one possible explanation: After the annual high-day Sabbath, the feast day of the days of Unleavened Bread [Thursday] these women purchased and prepared their spices on Friday, and then they rested on the weekly Sabbath, Saturday, according to the commandment (Ex. 20:8-11). Another interesting side note is the sign itself and Nineveh is representative of the gentiles nations. A second significant reason for believing the sign of Jonah is found in the passage of John 2:19 where, in response to the same request by the Jews for a sign, Yeshua replied "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." If that isn't enough when Yeshua was brought to trial, the two witnesses brought to testify against him both mentioned this remarkable claim. One said, Another said, When Yeshua was nailed to the cross some of the Jewish priests mocked him, saying, So there is a lot of significance in this three days and three nights prophecy. Did Yeshua keep it exactly or not? I say He did. It was still being discussed three days later.
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Post by visionary on Aug 31, 2013 12:46:34 GMT -8
Another interesting fact is that Passover, it comes right after the Spring Equinox when the days and nights are equal in time... 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night.
If you understand the Jewish calendar you will understand that these women went to the tomb on Saturday night, after Shabbat (the weekly one) had ended. It ends at sundown, then it is dark, but it is the beginning of the first day of the week.
It should read, 'at the dawn of', not 'at dawn' because 'at the dawn of the first day of the week is Saturday night. "At the dawn of" is a Jewish colloquial phrase when referring to the start of the new day.
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Post by visionary on Aug 31, 2013 12:48:43 GMT -8
As you can see he said he would be in the earth for 3days/3nights, so we must count from the time he was buried which was right before nightfall on the 14th.
1st night is Nissan 15th, it is a Wednesday night. First of Unleavened bread begins, this is a Shabbat 1st day is Nissan 15th and is a Thursday day. Again, a Shabbat
2nd night is Nissan 16th and is a Thursday night. 2nd day is Nissan 16th and is a Friday day. This is the day they [the women] bought and mixed up the spices
3rd night is Nissan 17th and is a Friday night. (This is start of weekly Shabbat) 3rd Day is Nissan 17th and is a Saturday day. He is resurrected right before it changes to the 18th, at sunset, (the end of the weekly Shabbat) thus 3 full nights and 3 full days.
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Post by visionary on Aug 31, 2013 12:56:53 GMT -8
Quick Overview of the events of that famous week…
• 10th of Nisan – Shabbat - Yeshua’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem ahead of the High Priest bringing in the Passover Lamb
• 11th of Nisan - Sunday - Yeshua returns to the Temple and casts out the money exchangers in the Temple. There He ministers to people and children in the Temple. This began “Day 1” of the inspection of the Korban lamb and the Pesach Lamb of God .
• 12th of Nisan - Monday - Yeshua is ministering in the Temple and interrogated by the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees. This is “Day 2” of the inspection of the Korban lamb and the Pesach Lamb of God.
• 13th of Nisan - Tuesday - Yeshua is again ministering in the Temple and being interrogated by the Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees. This is “Day 3” of the inspection of the Korban lamb and the Pesach Lamb of God.
• Eve of the 14th of Nisan – Tuesday Night – Yeshua and His disciples celebrate the Last Supper in the House with the Upper Room. As the rightful claimant to the throne of David, Yeshua sat directly over the tomb of His ancestral father, King David of Jerusalem.
• 14th of Nisan – Wednesday - The Last Supper and the Garden of Gethsemane experience followed in quick succession by the capture, trial and crucifixion of Yeshua as the sacrificial Passover lamb. A quick disposal of the Passover Lambs plus the quick disposal of the body of Yeshua was made before the onset of the High Shabbat on Passover that ended “Day 4” of the inspection of the lamb who was found without fault by the high priest and Yeshua was found without fault by the Roman governor, Pilate.
• Eve and the 15th of Nisan – Wednesday Night and Thursday – Here on the eve of the Passover Seder, the Jewish pilgrims rested on the “High Passover Shabbat as a festival day of convocation and rest. Yeshua was also resting in the grave on “Night and Day 1”. The First Day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread Begins
• 16th of Nisan - Friday - Yeshua resting in the grave on “Night and Day 2” on the day before the weekly Shabbat. The Second Day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
• 17th of Nisan - Sabbath - Here is the weekly Shabbat with the harvesting of the Fruit Fruits upon the setting of the sun after the completion of the weekly Shabbat. Yeshua had now been resting in the grave for “3 Nights and 3 Days” in the family tomb of his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea.
• Eve and the 18th of Nisan - Sunday - As the first stars started shining in the evening sky and the weekly seventh-day Sabbath was now over, an aftershock of the great earthquake during the death of Yeshua occurred. The family tomb of Joseph opened and the glorified being of the resurrected Messiah Yeshua of Israel strode out of the tomb. Yeshua was resurrected as the “First Fruit” of the resurrection after sundown Saturday evening on the eve of the first day. The next morning as the sun arose in the eastern sky, the priests began the waving of the sheaves of the First Fruits. It was at that moment of time that Mary Magdalene met her Rabbi as Yeshua announced to her that He was to ascend to heaven, present Himself and those who were also resurrected with Him to His Father. This is the Fourth Day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
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Miykhael
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To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Sept 1, 2013 8:37:50 GMT -8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 13:50:06 GMT -8
There is a little difficulty with John's report that Yeshua could not be touched by Mary because he had 'not yet ascended to (his) father'.
If we take that quite literally, within what John says, then just after he spoke to Mary he must have ascended into heaven and returned in time to speak with his disciples and the two on the road to Emmaus - therefore his 2nd coming has already happened; the coming that brings him to stand on the Mount of Olives must be the 3rd, which we eagerly await!
A small, but not insignificant, difficulty.
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2013 5:47:10 GMT -8
Shalom Cindy, and welcome! Miykhael, thanks for the links! Vis, as usual ... wow! And finally, There is a little difficulty with John's report that Yeshua could not be touched by Mary because he had 'not yet ascended to (his) father'. If we take that quite literally, within what John says, then just after he spoke to Mary he must have ascended into heaven and returned in time to speak with his disciples and the two on the road to Emmaus - therefore his 2nd coming has already happened; the coming that brings him to stand on the Mount of Olives must be the 3rd, which we eagerly await! A small, but not insignificant, difficulty. True, and I'm guessing you have an explanation ... Dan C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 11:31:08 GMT -8
See if you can find a clear reference to a second coming, as such, as opposed to him just returning at some point.
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2013 15:58:53 GMT -8
See if you can find a clear reference to a second coming, as such, as opposed to him just returning at some point. I don't recall there being one in scripture. It is just one of those "Christianese" sayings that we take for granted. Next question is obviously "Why did He have to go to the Father before anyone could touch Him?" Dan C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 23:20:17 GMT -8
There is a reference in Hebrews to a 2nd coming, as such (9:28) and Isaiah (52:13 - 53:12). However, overall, in the various Scriptures about his return, there is a clear understanding that he will return in a certain manner in a particular place that will lead to a series of events happening - almost none of which are in evidence today.
So the question you ask is very relevant (and was where I was heading) - is John correct and, if so, why did Yeshua have to return before anyone could touch him?
In John's gospel things happen in a slightly different way in comparison to the other gospels. Only one woman (Mary M) finds the tomb empty and goes to tell Peter who, with another disciple, runs to the tomb and looks inside to check that he had indeed risen, before the disciples return home. Mary M stays at the tomb, crying, whilst looking in, where she sees two angels with whom she has a short conversation before turning round and seeing Yeshua (whom she thought was the gardener). It is debated as to whether he said 'stop holding on to me' or 'do not hold on to me' but both could mean that she was actually in contact with him. Either way round, he said he had not yet ascended to his father as the reason he could not be touched by her (although she appears to have already touched him). Mary M is told to go and tell the disciples that he is going back to his father and [their] father - his G_d and [their] G_d.
There is no other Biblical reference to this, I think, but if John is right it must have been a very short return to his father as, later that day, he was talking to the disciples according to the other gospels.
The only way I can see to reconcile this difficulty is that references to a return, or a second return, apply from after his birth. In other words John's gospel becomes the first return and the long awaited return we have yet to see is the second return. His birth was not a 'return' in the same sense because he was born on earth and came for his first visit. Therefore, to return twice must mean that there were two visits he would make to his father, after his birth; the last return being on the Mt of Olives.
And so to your question - why? To fulfil the Scriptures, even if for a short time. Perhaps Mary M's touching was discouraged to avoid any 'pollution' from sinful earth between his death and final resurrection state. The Christians appear to be right, even if they got the 'how' a bit skewed.
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Post by alon on Sept 6, 2013 22:48:14 GMT -8
There is a reference in Hebrews to a 2nd coming, as such (9:28) and Isaiah (52:13 - 53:12). However, overall, in the various Scriptures about his return, there is a clear understanding that he will return in a certain manner in a particular place that will lead to a series of events happening - almost none of which are in evidence today. The reference to Heb 9:28 is interesting: 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world ; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. The phrase "will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin" almost sounds like this is talking about His return between the crucifixion and ascension, except the tense is future and this was written long after. And since as I am told Hebrews is one of the (few) books almost certainly written in Greek there should be no problems with translation. Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 6, 2013 23:11:26 GMT -8
... So the question you ask is very relevant (and was where I was heading) - is John correct and, if so, why did Yeshua have to return before anyone could touch him? In John's gospel things happen in a slightly different way in comparison to the other gospels. True, but the variations are minor, and since the gospels are eyewitness accounts or reports, the variations are to be expected. In fact, according to Chuck Colson, if the police took four eyewitness statements and they all were the same, they'd immediately suspect collusion. I suspect it had more to do with a Levitical priestly purity type thing before entering the Holy of Holies. Of course, this would mean He could not have allowed her to touch Him. I would also guess this was clearer in the Hebrew it would have originally been written in as to whether or not she actually did touch Him. Time would be completely irrelevant in the spiritual realm. Here, it could have been the blink of an eye, but there who knows what or how much was accomplished. I suspect we are getting close to a conflict with the SoF here. But the return could contextually mean just the two major advents, ignoring the Christophanies in the TNK and the return after His resurrection. LOL, nobody can be all wrong, even them "Christians!" And yes, if it had to do with His role as Cohen Gadol entering the sanctuary and the Holy of Holies He would have had to remain completely pure. Dan C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 23:43:32 GMT -8
As I said - there is a difficulty there. Either John is incorrect or Yeshua's return was being counted in a different way. It may be, of course, that we are used to speaking of a second coming, which is a very different term to a 'return'. However, Scripture refers more to a return than a second coming! Confusing? Yes! Which is why I made the point, initially. Re the translation of 'stop holding' or 'do not hold' - those two terms can mean the same thing if you think about it. If you hold on to someone then you could say 'stop holding me' or, pushing away the person who is holding you, you could say 'do not hold me'. OR, they can be opposites! You pays your money takes your choice! I am not denying anything in relation to any Christian doctrine, theology or Christology - I am merely saying that we can best overcome the problem with John's gospel by making a distinction between his birth and later comings and goings; all other things remain intact.
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Post by alon on Sept 7, 2013 10:48:27 GMT -8
As I said - there is a difficulty there. Either John is incorrect or Yeshua's return was being counted in a different way. It may be, of course, that we are used to speaking of a second coming, which is a very different term to a 'return'. However, Scripture refers more to a return than a second coming! Confusing? Yes! Which is why I made the point, initially. Re the translation of 'stop holding' or 'do not hold' - those two terms can mean the same thing if you think about it. If you hold on to someone then you could say 'stop holding me' or, pushing away the person who is holding you, you could say 'do not hold me'. OR, they can be opposites! You pays your money takes your choice! Unlike the book of Hebrews, which probably WAS written in Greek, the book of John was probably written in Hebrew, possibly translated into Aramaic, and then into the lower Greek. This has caused many problems in the gospels (and the NT as a whole). So where we see that it looks as if she actually touched Yeshua, it may not be the case at all in the original manuscript, now lost or intentionally destroyed. The same applies to the language concerning His "second coming." That makes it sound as if there will only be two times Yeshua appears on earth- which can't be because it has happened twice now just in the book of John! I'm about to go over to the archives and deal with another apparent discrepancy in the gospel of Matthew which is almost certainly due to translational issues. Dan C
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