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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2013 21:57:39 GMT -8
I went to a Messianic study tonight, and the Rabbi made a very interesting point: the removal of Jewish influence in the New Testament church hinges on the churches proving that Jesus was not Jewish. This is done by de-Judaizing the Galilee in the time of Jesus. "He was raised in a Hellenized culture, influenced by the pagans the Jews of the Galilee interacted and intermarried with; so He was more pagan than Jewish." They are of course not this direct (read that 'honest'), but in effect this is what is taught in Christian seminaries everywhere. If, and only if you can instill this belief in Christian congregations, then you can nail that pesky Jewish (eeeeek! .. it's the LAW ) to the tree instead of your sins. Now we can sin openly, because there is no standard; we got grace! I once made this point (though less informed then and certainly less well articulated) to a pastor who I still respect. He's faced AK's on the mission field, wielded by people that would rather use them than not, and walked through unarmed to bring relief and spread the gospel. But he literally screamed in my face that Jesus spoke Greek as His primary language. Jesus thought like a Greek, not a Jew. That is just one step removed from coming right out and saying Jesus is not a Jew. Galilee was Greek, but Jerusalem was Jewish. So now we see how easy it is to make the leap that those poor, simple Galileans that followed Jesus had to face all those educated, powerful Pharisees (who really had nothing to do with the trial or crucifixion of Yeshua) in Jerusalem. It was the Jews who killed Jesus. Absurd on it's face- Jerusalem was a seat of power for the Romans at the time- and the Sanhedrin couldn't meet on feast days, nor could they pass judgment, nor could they at the time have anyone killed- but this argument pervades even the most Jew-friendly evangelical churches today. The Jews killed Jesus, so He put us lucky gentiles under a whole new dispensation; one where the "Law" is done away with. But tell me, who is referred to as "the lawless one?" Who presides over lawlessness? I don't even know if I want to carry this line of thought to completion- the implications are truly horrendous. Dan C
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Post by Questor on Dec 25, 2013 3:11:24 GMT -8
I went to a Messianic study tonight, and the Rabbi made a very interesting point: the removal of Jewish influence in the New Testament church hinges on the churches proving that Jesus was not Jewish. This is done by de-Judaizing the Galilee in the time of Jesus. "He was raised in a Hellenized culture, influenced by the pagans the Jews of the Galilee interacted and intermarried with; so He was more pagan than Jewish." They are of course not this direct (read that 'honest'), but in effect this is what is taught in Christian seminaries everywhere. If, and only if you can instill this belief in Christian congregations, then you can nail that pesky Jewish (eeeeek! .. it's the LAW ) to the tree instead of your sins. Now we can sin openly, because there is no standard; we got grace! I once made this point (though less informed then and certainly less well articulated) to a pastor who I still respect. He's faced AK's on the mission field, wielded by people that would rather use them than not, and walked through unarmed to bring relief and spread the gospel. But he literally screamed in my face that Jesus spoke Greek as His primary language. Jesus thought like a Greek, not a Jew. That is just one step removed from coming right out and saying Jesus is not a Jew. Galilee was Greek, but Jerusalem was Jewish. So now we see how easy it is to make the leap that those poor, simple Galileans that followed Jesus had to face all those educated, powerful Pharisees (who really had nothing to do with the trial or crucifixion of Yeshua) in Jerusalem. It was the Jews who killed Jesus. Absurd on it's face- Jerusalem was a seat of power for the Romans at the time- and the Sanhedrin couldn't meet on feast days, nor could they pass judgment, nor could they at the time have anyone killed- but this argument pervades even the most Jew-friendly evangelical churches today. The Jews killed Jesus, so He put us lucky gentiles under a whole new dispensation; one where the "Law" is done away with. But tell me, who is referred to as "the lawless one?" Who presides over lawlessness? I don't even know if I want to carry this line of thought to completion- the implications are truly horrendous. Dan C I think what is particularly is how many Churchians refuse to see much beyond the grace part of the Brit Chadashah. It isn't that they are so bent on sinning, and getting away with it...it is that they don't see that Yeshua wanted obedience, nor do they think He wants it now. Not all Churchians, of course, because there are Believers in many Churches that seek the deeper things of G-d, but it is only they who seem to notice the parts about loving YHVH with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. The remainder, even those that are well brought up enough to be polite about their flat out dis-belief that YHVH could want anything so inconvenient as obedience to all those laws that Yeshua supposedly nailed to the stake, I fear, never really notice what they are supposed to be doing. But then, the Catholics aren't the only one's who don't teach their people to actually read the Scriptures. The seminaries only teach how to teach their specific doctrine, and though they may teach the Ten Commandments...it is a nice thing to mention now and then...they don't actually ever learn themselves to teach how to put all those inconvenient ideas into practice. And yet, it wasn't always so. The Adversary has made good time since the big Ten stopped being taught in schools in 1963...at least before then most kids knew that lying, cheating and stealing were a no-no, and if you go back to the early 1900's, they mostly kept the Ten Commandments, except for for moving the Sabbath, and then, they mostly did keep it, in their own way...it was just on the wrong day. It is odd, though...despite all those Exodus movies no one seems to notice that those commandments brought down from the mountain were written in Hebrew! How anyone could have not seen the Jewishness of it all baffles even me, who once was somewhat as blinded...although in a different way, since I didn't go to church except to get baptized, and therefore mostly only knew what was in my Bible. I didn't really know enough to understand anything except that the political guys in Jerusalem arranged for the Romans to execute Yeshua. I just knew they were the bad guys...not that they were any different from Yeshua except in viewpoint, and seemed to want to get him killed. For me, it was only in my love for history that showed up the viewpoint about the Jews not being loved by the Churches, but again, without a Churchian background, I only saw the Catholic Church persecuting anyone[/i] who disagreed with them. I didn't really understand that it was because it was thought that Jesus was killed by the Jews. I should have thought that anyone could see that there was a plot by some Jews to get the Roman's to do the evil deed. It was only very slowly that I understood that all the Jews were blamed for the death of Yeshua, and that somehow they forfeited Him. From the Resurrection on, Yeshua somehow was no longer involved with the Jews, and the Apostles somehow moved to Greece, and thence to Rome, and thus Christianity was born. It seemed peculiar then, and it seems downright silly now that so many people still are under the impression that Yeshua somehow became a European the moment He died.
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2013 4:01:16 GMT -8
I think what is particularly is how many Churchians refuse to see much beyond the grace part of the Brit Chadashah. What is really is they don't even understand "grace." Which is pretty much what you said. As for the Ten Commandments, according to Exodus 34, they got the wrong ones! Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 5:59:46 GMT -8
Some thoughts on those who think and teach that Yeshua was not Jewish.
Constantine had removed all things that were pertaining to Jewish feasts to Sabbath rest, etc. Martin Luther hated the Jewish people and wanted nothing to do with them either. And many others. So with this mindset creeping into most churches the teaching would be that Jesus was not Jewish.
Which leads to what we call Replacement Theology. Where they believe that God left the Jewish people, which He did but only for a season and will return to them at a set time, which I believe He is already doing.
So with this mindset that God left the Jewish people and went to the Gentile nations, which is true to a point. When one thinks this they believe that God left Israel and the Jewish people and went and started a new covenant with a new people, Gentiles. So the Gentiles would believe they are the new Israel the new nation.
So when you have all of this being passed down through the centuries and being taught in the churches, eventually Yeshua would be dethroned and brought down to man's level. Replacement Theology simply teaches that God replaced Israel with the Gentile nations.
This is not true of course. Because what most Christians fail to see is that God will leave the Gentile nations and go back to Israel and His chosen people. The bible tells us this clearly.
And then you have some people who believe in the Two House theory, which I don't, or they have become Jews. And they make themselves Jews. I have come across many of those.
There are verses that comes to mind.
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9
"Behold , I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie ; behold , I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Revelations 3:9
Now in my thinking there is two ways of looking at these verses. One is to think that it is for those who call themselves Jews and are truly not. Or to think that there are Jewish people who are actually Jews but they are far from God spiritually. I see both.
Now I could go further on with this however I need to go and get ready for the day. As I need to work this afternoon. I hope to be back later this evening.
Many blessings to all.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2013 20:13:47 GMT -8
... So with this mindset creeping into most churches the teaching would be that Jesus was not Jewish. It has been taught for centuries, and still persists in mainstream Christianity today. Few will outright say Jesus was not Jewish. But if they can remove the "taint" of Jewishness from where He was raised, they can say He was Jewish only by birth. If He was raised in a predominantly gentile society, schooled in the Greek method and even spoke Greek as a primary language; why then, He wasn't really Jewish, see? They teach anti-Semitism subtly by leading you to the conclusion with "facts" which are not facts but lies. And they lay the groundwork for re-interpreting scripture as we wish, because we can now apply the Greek mythological method and change the story. Depends on what is meant by "left." I'm a bit uncomfortable with that term, because I see the Bible as the history of Gods faithfulness to those He called. He has been faithful to Israel always despite her many sins. I look at the nation of Israel now and it is evident His hand has been there all along, guiding and certainly protecting to bring them through trials that should have destroyed them and/or their faith. Being it is the word of God it is very possible both were meant. However I think the primary meaning is the p'shat, that many in the 1st cen church were saying they were Jewish when they were really gentiles. They themselves were probably never believers, or were believers that were drawn away by false doctrine and pretense. One of the reasons I go slow and am careful with taking on the trappings of Judaism is I don't want to get drawn into "playing Jew." There are commandments, which I think we are to follow but that look to the world as "Jewish." I do not want to add to this other things which are not commandments but that I am told by some I should do. If I could sit for three years under the instruction of a real Messianic Jewish congregation, learn the meanings of what I am doing and learn to do it right, then maybe some of them. But honestly, I was born a gentile. Being grafted onto the Hebraic stock by adoption as a believer does not change my life experiences, religious training and mental processes- all of which are radically different than for a Jew growing up in the same place. So I struggle to see things "through Hebraic eyes" when I study; I make sure I tell people I am not a Jew by birth when they find out I am Messianic; I am careful how far I go taking on the trappings of Judaism; but I always try to identify strongly with Israel and Judaism where it counts- countering anti-Semitism and correcting erroneous assumptions. And I go slow and hold to what stands the test. But Jews have a special calling, and I don't want to be a stumbling block either to their accepting Yeshua as HaMoshiach or to their fulfilling that calling. So other than what is commanded in scripture, I mostly (always the odd exception) leave things Jewish to the Jews. Dan C
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Post by Questor on Dec 31, 2013 17:09:05 GMT -8
Yes, it is why I began terming myself a Messianic Gentile, because it best describes me. Not a Jew, and not a Christian exactly either, but then, those following the Anointed One seem to be really very few, while many use the name.
And worse, many believe in Yeshua, as one might in Santa Claus, thinking that so long as you aren't all that bad, you won't get coal in your stocking either.
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Post by alon on Jan 13, 2014 17:37:11 GMT -8
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Post by Yedidyah on Jan 13, 2014 17:46:58 GMT -8
The thread has been removed. We don't want any replacement type doctrine on this forum. It is more than clear that Hashem has kept His eyes on Israel and will continue to do so. I don't want anything that promotes we are in a "gentile" period before Hashem places His eyes back on Israel doctrine being taught on here. That is why the link has been removed. Shalom! Yedidyah
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