|
Post by demosfen on Feb 15, 2009 14:55:21 GMT -8
Imagine that a guy with weird views starts attending your conservative-style messianic congregation. He won't wear a kipa, ties his tzit-tzits to his belt loops, and doesn't recognize Rabbinical teachings at all. He doesn't try to stir stuff, but he looks like he's in disagreement with what the Rabbi says sometimes, and never opens siddur during worship. If you initiate a conversation with him, he clearly doesn't fit in
My question is, how would you feel about it, would it bother you, and would you want him kicked out?
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Feb 17, 2009 5:05:22 GMT -8
I try to not answer questions right away for a couple of reasons. First, I don't want to jump onto something without giving others a chance to offer their thoughts first, but mainly because I don't want the first thing that pops into my head be the answer; rather to wait for something that is well-reasoned and hopefully seasoned with grace through prayer.
In the same spirit, we need to consider our relationship with our brothers in the community with a deeper insight than surface understanding or a knee jerk reaction.
If Elijah or Jeremiah were to come into any of our congregations, we probably wouldn't be comfortable with their demeanor. God doesn't necessarily choose people to serve Him based upon their social aptitude.
Also, what may be interpretted as disinterest or disagreement may simply discomfort. From whatever perspective this fellow may have come from, it is most likely very foreign to what he is experiencing among you. I am an audible learner: to have the siddur open in front of me when I am first hearing and gaining familiarity with the songs and prayers is a distraction. I need to sit and listen for a while. I've known several old geezers who whill grunt whenever I say something apart from their previous understanding of the text. I've come to learn that it doesn't necessarily mean that they disagree; but they are "book-marking" the idea in their own minds by making the sound so that they will remember to study it out further for themselves.
Now, it could be that this fellow simply has an antagonistic spirit and that he is just there to cause trouble. The truth is, you rarely have to kick such a person out. They are typically all too willing to leave on their own after a very short time. But it could also be that this person needs a longer runway than others, and will cough and sputter for a while before taking off; but flies straight and clear once he's in the air. So, though my advice columnist license is long expired, I recommend having patience and seeing if this fellow blossoms into a flower or a thistle before making judgments upon him.
Mark
|
|
veggirl
Full Member
Greetings!
Posts: 103
|
Post by veggirl on Feb 20, 2009 16:17:32 GMT -8
Wow Mark well said. demosfen: I can't believe you would even think of wanting someone kicked out.. Thats so . You're God is bigger then you, Adoni can change the heart of anyone.. How can you say he don't fit in? Like how? because hes not like you? I have not been a christian very long, but I really do understand why people leave church and God. I almost did, but my bestfriend was there like always to help me back up , I only have one master. He said not to stop what I am doing, theres something there! We are not to judge each other, if we can't wash each others feet, then we don't have the love of Jesus in us. This guy will come around, pray for him. He could become a rabbi and help people come to the lord. Peace&love Bri'gette
|
|
|
Post by demosfen on Feb 20, 2009 19:25:04 GMT -8
How can you say he don't fit in? Like how?
Things like calculating his own dates for Passover and Purim, not celebrating Hannukah, giving tithe to the poor rather than to Rabbi, etc. No respect for Rabbinical teachings whatsoever. Mind you it's a conservative congregation, not one of more Christian-like ones
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Feb 21, 2009 5:16:56 GMT -8
There are a lot of folks who come out of Christian churches feeling lied to and betrayed who are still in spiritual "fight or flight" mode. It can be damaging to the congregation by either extreme: catering to whatever idea that passes through, or demanding submission to the perspective of the leadership.
It is healthy to have folks among you who stir the pot, who cause you to put to proof the things that you believe. It is unhealthy walk around the community with a boat anchor.
Typically, one of two things occur. Either the "dissindent" gathers his own following and splits the congregation or he leaves in frustration. Either way, the congregation, though often much smaller, is much stronger in the end. And usually, within a year or so, most of those who were led astray return (if the leadership maintains a gentle but firm hand on the situation, always acting in integrity).
There are some rules that must be followed. This is where Matthew 18:15-17 comes into play. Rule #1: Do not gossip or give any person a reason to harbor bad feelings about this person. It will backfire on you.
Rule #2: Do not ever give an ultamatum to stay or go based upon theological practice or understanding. If it is necessary to remove a person from fellowship, it is for specific, repeated malicious conduct, such as gossip or private strategies to undermine the leadership- the dissenter needs to follow the rules of Matthew 18 like everyone else.
Rule #3: Allow a forum (a public meeting) where specific issues of theology and practice may be debated and discussed (ie, the dissenter can be public proven wrong). Don't use the bema as a platform to supress other ideas, rather to facilitate a clearer understanding of the Scriptures. By not allowing him to speak, he is given little recourse but to vent his passion in unethical ways.
Dale Evans once said that a person who agrees with you on everything is a redundancy. I can't stress how important it is to allow other understandings of the Scripture be voiced, if only so that we have the opportunity to exercise our convictions and own for ourselves the truth of God's Word.
|
|
veggirl
Full Member
Greetings!
Posts: 103
|
Post by veggirl on Feb 21, 2009 13:15:20 GMT -8
demosfen I pray that you are listening to what Mark has posted Peace&love bri'gette.
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 25, 2015 3:43:22 GMT -8
... demosfen: I can't believe you would even think of wanting someone kicked out.. Thats so . ... We are not to judge each other, ... vegggirl is wrong.
Rom 2:26-27 Therefore, fif an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your 6written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Just to name a few of the many verses where we are told to judge others.
We (Synagogue Beit Aveinu) do not require anyone to come in dressed like us, wearing kippot and tallitot. No one demands you wear tzitzyot. We even have a couple of Unitarian Messianics that attend. The requirement IS that an individual shows progress in their walk with Elohim. It is also required that those with different views not teach or try to persuade members their way is right. Just as here on this forum, they may ask questions but not teach.
When a person is disruptive, or it becomes obvious they are not there to learn but cling rigidly to their own way, they are asked to leave. Lashon hara is also dealt with, sometimes summarily. We loose 1 in 3 members on average, yet we are still growing! And it is hands down the best place I have ever worshiped! So Rav S. is doing something right.
Dan C
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jan 25, 2015 12:15:17 GMT -8
Not only is it okay, we are instructed to do so.
"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him." Titus 3:10
Tolerance has been confused with compassion. G-d's people are to be compassionate, not tolerant. Compassion builds-up and grows in what is true. Tolerance simply looks the other way and ultimately let's the person suffer at the hands of lies. G-d's people are not called to be tolerant. We are called to be compassionate. Compassion often means dealing with a painful truth and showing what will not be tolerated. Consider the difference between tolerating children and having compassion enough to teach them what will not be tolerated.
Yeshua reached out to us sinners and people who were living a lifestyle contrary to G-d's word, but he always taught and confronted with the truth. We are not living according to his example when we tolerate at the expense of truth, and we most certainly are not showing compassion.
|
|