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Acts 15
Feb 6, 2007 13:22:08 GMT -8
Post by Mpossoff on Feb 6, 2007 13:22:08 GMT -8
Was having a discussion with someone about Gentiles who "attached" themselves to Israel in the TaNaK. Those who attached themselves with Israel were considered as if they were Israel...correct? If that is correct then what about observance? I believe they would have had to. Now we get to the NT. Acts 15. Then you get to Acts 15:21. In Acts 15:21 I learned that this is just a start to fellowship to learn more. To learn and observe the . I believe we are not to compell Gentiles as Peter said but there is a but. Is there a but? Can Gentiles be grafted into Israel and not be observant? That would be a contradiction to scripture. I looked in Deut. and Leviticus and it mentions soujorners. Any comments? Marc
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Acts 15
Feb 6, 2007 13:39:13 GMT -8
Post by Mpossoff on Feb 6, 2007 13:39:13 GMT -8
This is the way I see it from scripture.... Acts 15 it's a start for fellowship. But when you get to Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” They can participate and learn more. So it's a start and not the end. Israel is to be the light to all nations/peoples. Since Israel is to be the light of all nations/peoples and in Deuteronomy and in Isaiah G-d says that, then what does that mean? What does it mean if you are Gentile and are grafted into Israel? Let's take Caleb as an example who was born a Gentile and "attached" himself to Israel therefore making him a true Israelite. Do you think Caleb had to go through a ritual conversion? I would say no. So Caleb was an Israelite. Grafted in or not is not the issue. He was an Israelite. Did he still obey His ? Or was it known he was born a gentile and since it was known he was a gentile he didn't have to obey His ? How about Cornelius in Acts. Because of man made laws he wasn't allowed to enter the Temple although he was considered a G-d fearer. He believed in the G-d of Israel. Did he obey His ? G-d is pretty specific in Deuteronomy and Leviticus about His instructions for Israel. Again whether grafted in or not is not the issue. If you "attach" yourself with Israel and believe in the G-d of Israel you are Israel. It's not about ethnicity. With that being said does G-d have different Commandments for Jews and Gentiles. Does He have different Commandments for Gentiles that are grafted into Israel? I don't think so as He said Israel will be a light to all nations/peoples. Their "Holy Indentity" if you will in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. So do I believe Gentile believers should not be compelled Peter said they shouldn't. But Acts 15:21 is a start to learn more. Learn more about the . By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensomeI could be wrong here. But it wouldn't make sense for G-d to have two separate alliances "under the same roof". That would be a contradiction of scripture. Maybe if Igo back to Deuteronomy and Leviticus I can both find something about Gentiles who are grafted in? Marc
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Acts 15
Feb 6, 2007 22:10:19 GMT -8
Post by Pioneer on Feb 6, 2007 22:10:19 GMT -8
Then Peter declared, 47 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Yeshua HaMashiach. My Teacher says when one is grafted into the Olive Tree, he should smell like an Olive He also says about the four requirements for becoming into fellowship, that these are just the starting point, Acts 15:21, Implying that the is taught in every Synogogue and they are to learn and follow as they learn how. Exodus 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." We who are new to the are given a "BYE" to prepare to keep . IMO Shalom
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Acts 15
Feb 6, 2007 23:05:30 GMT -8
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 6, 2007 23:05:30 GMT -8
Shalom Marc, I agree with your thoughts. Acts 15 was just the beginning of Goyim (Gentiles) coming to salvation and a relationship with the Elohim Of Yisrael and His son Yeshua The Messiah. Complete observance was not required when first coming to Messiah. But, they were expected to grow in the word of Elohim as there would only be one for both Yehudah (Jew) and Goy (Gentile) as we see in B'midbar (Num.) 15:15-16. We also see that the TeNaKh ( , Prophets, and Writings) would be essential for the man of Elohim to be "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." as we see in 2Timothy 3:16-17. The subject of the beginning of Acts 15 was the salvation of the Goyim, not their sanctification. I think you are on the right track! Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 7, 2007 6:08:22 GMT -8
I totally agree with the above sentiments. The 4 mitzvot in Acts 15 are a starting point, and not an end in and of themselves. The final goal is for both Jew and Goy to be completely observant. Shalom, Natanel
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Acts 15
Feb 7, 2007 11:17:35 GMT -8
Post by Mpossoff on Feb 7, 2007 11:17:35 GMT -8
So how do approach a Gentile that comes to your Congregation? Like I said we shouldn't compell them like Peter said. But isn't it a "requirement" for the goal to be observant? Hmmm, I guess I answered my question, LOL. It's important for a congregation to be observant and the Gentile will hear For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.Now if a congregation isn't preaching Moses every Sabbath then a different story as they won't be receiving the correct doctrine. Marc
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Acts 15
Feb 7, 2007 12:25:09 GMT -8
Post by Pioneer on Feb 7, 2007 12:25:09 GMT -8
So how do approach a Gentile that comes to your Congregation? Like I said we shouldn't compell them like Peter said. But isn't it a "requirement" for the goal to be observant? Hmmm, I guess I answered my question, LOL. It's important for a congregation to be observant and the Gentile will hear For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.Now if a congregation isn't preaching Moses every Sabbath then a different story as they won't be receiving the correct doctrine. Marc Shalom Marc, Our tiny congregation, meet in a home, Our leader blows the shofar, then proceed with Bracah, His wife lights the candles, blessing over the light, Kiddush, handwashing, blessing of the loaves, Songs, the Shema, Amidah and the blessing of the , then we sit and read the parshah, the blessing of the retirement, then we have a discussion of the Parshah and if we do not use too much time we proceed to the Haftarah reading, rarely do we get to the reading of the B'rit Hadashah as we are together for two hours, it is about bedtime for the young people. Then I do the rest of the Seder the next morning after breakfast. Whatever we didn't have time to complete. The group leader has been a member of a large group in a city, he even cants all of the seder which is very nice and unusual in my area, in the heart of the Baptist Bible Belt. I have heard a Rabbi say when you have read a hundred times, then you begin to know , since I have been a part of this group and we have gone through it going on five years, I have about 95 more years to go, if Yeshua tarries that long. So yes teaching of Moshe is the primary part of our version of a convocation. We are all escapees and refugees from Christian Churches, we have had two inquiries by those who are Jewish, but as of this past Sabbath none have joined us. Since they do not live within walking distance and it is not likely they will be any move to this end of civilization, probably won't be attending! Always welcome, but none yet! That is the way we do it, right wrong or indifferent, it resembles the big city Seder. I hope this is the type comment you wanted. Shalom u'vrachot
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Acts 15
Feb 7, 2007 15:06:10 GMT -8
Post by Mpossoff on Feb 7, 2007 15:06:10 GMT -8
Reason I asked was because I believe and Messiah should be the center. I assume there are Messianic congregations that are not so. Marc
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Acts 15
Feb 7, 2007 16:19:29 GMT -8
Post by Pioneer on Feb 7, 2007 16:19:29 GMT -8
Reason I asked was because I believe and Messiah should be the center. I assume there are Messianic congregations that are not so. Marc To me, is the word of God and Yeshua is the word of God, the living Word/ , whatever name you use they are the same. And one without the other, you have another gospel! If the Word of God is in your inner parts, you should be a living Word! He walked in , if we become imatators of Sha'ul as he was also of the Mashiach, we will be also walking in ! We all need to allow the Perfect Word to bring us into perfection. His instructions. Matthew 5:48. Shalom
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Acts 15
Feb 7, 2007 18:15:03 GMT -8
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 7, 2007 18:15:03 GMT -8
Shalom Marc, In Yeshua's day there was a three year reading cycle and unless someone owned a they probably would not hear all of read until a few years had passed. Therefore, I believe that we should have the same patience with Goyim (Gentiles) that visit and attend observant congregations. You are right that there are several Messianic congregations out there where the Jewish poplulation is observant, but they do not reccommend or encourage the Goyim to be so. They treat them as honored guests, but not as disciples in which to be taught . Essentially in many of these congregations they are treated as second class citizens in Yisrael...But, teaches us a much different lesson (B'midbar/Num. 15:15-16, Mattityahu/Matt. 5:16-19, 2Tim.3:16-17 and the list can go on and on). And, then there are "Messianic" congregations that teach that observance is just an option like salt or pepper on a steak, if so chosen. These particular congregations have not stepped far from their original Anti- Christian churches and are pretty much just a church with a kippah. Shalom chaver, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 9, 2007 8:55:23 GMT -8
My mother attends such a congregation. And to make it worse... the Leadership don't even wear kippot! It is these types of congregations that anti-missionaries (rightfully) take issue with more than anything else.
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Acts 15
May 26, 2007 5:30:43 GMT -8
Post by Mark on May 26, 2007 5:30:43 GMT -8
I thought I mightthrow a twist into the conversation.
Paul agreed with the Acts 15 resolution and went throughout Asia to declare this conclusion with the believing communities. Yet, in 1st Corinthians 8, he teaches that there is no problem with eating food which had been sacrificed to idols. Does anyone see a contradiction here?
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Acts 15
May 26, 2007 13:03:59 GMT -8
Post by Prodigal Girl on May 26, 2007 13:03:59 GMT -8
My take on I Co.. 8 is that he is saying that even though we know that idols are not real, are dead wood, that does not mean we now have liberty to eat food which has been sacrificed to idols. Because if we do and people see us, they will assume we are still worshiping and following and believing in the idols. We need to make a statement by NOT eating food which has been obviously sacrificed to idols. This may or may not be relevant to most of of here in America, but this is still a VERY relevant section of scripture to those believers who come from or live in societies where food is normally sacrificed to idols in the average home and restaurant. It is a real conflict, to decide whether to honor your ancestors or not, with the family altar in Chinese homes. To not do it is rather unthinkable; hence you have Chinese Christians that go back home and do the idol thing out of respect for their families. Difficult position to be in. I always wondered if the prohibition against drinking wine made by non-Jews in the is related to its being used as an offering to idols, as a normal state of affairs.
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Post by Mark on Jun 5, 2007 4:36:38 GMT -8
In Galatians 2, Paul recounts the council at Jerusalem and describes the mandates in the most simplistic of terms: that they remember the poor. At first, this may seem a bit confusing because in Acts 15, benevolence toward the impoverished wasn't even considered; but if you consider, in Paul's language, that the poor represented the spiritually destitute, this brings the whole position into a different light. We tend to read the prohibitions of Acts 15 as a shopping list "don't drink or chew or go with girls who do". As long as I don't do these things then I'm okay. This is not the tone of the council (or at least, not how Paul interpretted it). The prohibitions of Acts 15 are specifically descriptors of the common pagan worship of the day. The new believers were enjoined to separate themselves from those things that identified with ritual idolatry (i.e. participating in the worship of any other god: the first and second commandments).
1st Corinthians 8 is a more generalized idea. Is it possible to eat mean that has been sacrificed to idols without participating in ritual idolatry? Some may say yes and others say no. This is the question that Paul is addressing in this chapter- what he is saying is, "don't allow your differinhg position on this question come between your fellowship in Messiah."
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Acts 15
Aug 20, 2007 21:31:14 GMT -8
Post by losquintanas on Aug 20, 2007 21:31:14 GMT -8
Shalom, For many years I have struggled with the issue of observance among the nations and the Christian churches' resistance against even the word . God, however began to move in my heart to understand that the is much deeper than what we realize, and the issues are irrevelant in comparison to the immersion of the Ruach HaKodesh apart from observance and the need that we have within our souls to cry out to Yeshuateinu. Many of the Mitzvot found in the are bound to the Land of Israel and even still only when the Temple is present and in order. The Mishkhan in the wilderness was given with specefic instructions which later when Shlomo built the Temple altered the structure to suit a more stable Israel. Furthermore the ancient Rabbis when commenting on chapters 40-48 in the book of Ezekiel notice the change in order given to the Kohanim and concerning the temple. Concerning Mashiach the Tanak states "he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." Isaiah 42:4 Ule'torato i'im ye'a'cheilu . What ? The of the messiah that is based on emunah (faith) and not on works. The loving power of God that by the death of Mashiach puts our bodies to death and gives us life by the Ruach HaKodesh. The faith in the ressurection of the dead and the renewal of our lives when we believe the report about Mashiach Yeshua. See John (Y'hochanan) 1:12-13. The chapter in Isaiah goes on to describe our Savior and in verse 21 the word says something peculiar: "It pleased the LORD for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious." The of the Mashiach teaches us that by dying to ourselves we live for others for all men are created in the image of Elohim and by love and service we glorify the of Adonai and HaMashiach. There are very few people qualified to actually teach in its original light, because it was the duty of the Kohanim who would meditate on the service and the ordinances done in the temple which taught us about heavenly things. The reality was the cross. I myself love and I eat kosher and wear tzitziot ect. but I have learned that the life in Mashiach is about pure love because the can be taken in so many interpertations. "My Rabbi says this is permissible", "well my Rabbi says that this is not permessible on this day except under these circumstances". The beauty of the is that its teachings are never ending. However Just as in Acts 15 there is a standard and the standard laid out here in this chapter is very wise and foundational. Gods has never been abolished and never will be, however the does grow and change, not in the way we think of change, but just like the Mishkan changed from a tent to a glorious Temple so does the become more glorious with the Mashiach and the glory is in His "Righteousness by faith." We are blessed to love Gods , and instead of being critical or discouraged as I was for many years, we should rejoice that others know Yeshua and pray for their eyes to be opened to the truth that is not bondage but life in Yeshua. I believe that the more love we show through observance the more effectual the ministry becomes, the key is emunah and that is steadfastness. We do not pressure people but understand their need for Yeshua's Grace (Chesed) as well as our own daily. Shalom and may Adonai bless you B'Shem Yeshua HaMashiach.
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