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Post by messimom on Feb 24, 2007 23:04:52 GMT -8
I agree with Mark here too. When Yeshua said "it is finished" and the veil was rent from top to bottom, as I understand it, that was about YHVH's grief for His Son and spiritually gave us more "direct" access to Him (clear as mud I know, and maybe I'm wrong on that, just what I've heard...) Had "it is finished" referred to his complete work on earth, including ending the sacrificial system, wouldn't it have been more appropriate for the altar to be split in half right then rather than a veil?
Shavua Tov
Messimom
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jo-b
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Post by jo-b on Feb 25, 2007 6:30:19 GMT -8
Just to throw my two cents into the pot, I do not agree with the two house theory, as Yeshua said that HE IS THE ONLY WAY to the Father!
I know that all of Yisra'el will be saved, don't know how, but He said it, so I believe.
BTW- Messimom, in reality, most Gentile translations of the B'rit Chadashah have that verse mis-translated. If you go back to the original Greek and then to what the Ancient Hebrew would have actually been, (and there are a few good complete Hebrew copies of Mattityahu and bits of two of the other Gospels in the original Hebrew); Yeshua actually did not say "it is finished" what He really said was, " It is accomplished!" That does not say to me that His work on earth is over, but that He had accomplished the task He came here to do!
Shalom
Jo_b
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 25, 2007 8:02:52 GMT -8
That's a good way to put it jo-b! "Accomplished," not "finished," I like that.
Shavua Tov,
Natanel
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 25, 2007 14:54:52 GMT -8
Amein!  |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 25, 2007 15:55:07 GMT -8
Acts 3:18 and God, according as he had previously announced by the mouth of all the prophets that the Messiah would suffer, hath in this manner fulfilled [it].
Like jo-b said He accomplished it. Now what did He accomplish? What the prophets prophesized like Isaiah. Matthew 2:5So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:
6 ‘ But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people IsraelThat is a 'remez' referring to Isaiah I believe. This is one of many. Marc Just to throw my two cents into the pot, I do not agree with the two house theory, as Yeshua said that HE IS THE ONLY WAY to the Father! I know that all of Yisra'el will be saved, don't know how, but He said it, so I believe. BTW- Messimom, in reality, most Gentile translations of the B'rit Chadashah have that verse mis-translated. If you go back to the original Greek and then to what the Ancient Hebrew would have actually been, (and there are a few good complete Hebrew copies of Mattityahu and bits of two of the other Gospels in the original Hebrew); Yeshua actually did not say "it is finished" what He really said was, " It is accomplished!" That does not say to me that His work on earth is over, but that He had accomplished the task He came here to do! Shalom Jo_b
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Post by MattyJames on Feb 28, 2007 3:27:30 GMT -8
MJ - thank you for starting this thread. Mark - nice concise writing and thought provoking insights As we say here in Australia - 'No worries Mate!'  |
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Post by MattyJames on Feb 28, 2007 3:35:22 GMT -8
Reuel - Good to see you here!
Its interesting you should bring up the point about Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Azariah ect. I too absolutely agree and furthermore tenaciously defend the fact the the Levitical Administration is not the basis for ones individual Salvation. Even according to the Sinai Covenant. Its seems we agree on this point.
However - you didn't answer the question as directly as I wished - let me try again.
If the temple was rebuilt, and out of some remarkable coincidence the Ark of the Covenant was found, and the Levitical Administration was reinstituted, and the red heifer was available and all the relevent fact and figures where in place and ready - would you see fit to keep to the sacrifical system?
What say you??
thanks,
MJ
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 28, 2007 5:22:46 GMT -8
Hi Matty, I have the same 'delemna'. I know the  says that Aaron will be a priesthood forever. Forever means forever. Then you have Yeshua the High Priest, Prophet and King. if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.We all know that this points to Yeshua, the Annointed High Priest. I do understand the sacrificial system at the present time. What I'm battling with is that the way I'm seeing it is that Yeshua is our High Priest. Then again scripture says that Aaron will be forever a priesthood. I guess I'm battling with how can Yeshua and the priesthood co-exist? Marc Reuel - Good to see you here! Its interesting you should bring up the point about Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Azariah ect. I too absolutely agree and furthermore tenaciously defend the fact the the Levitical Administration is not the basis for ones individual Salvation. Even according to the Sinai Covenant. Its seems we agree on this point. However - you didn't answer the question as directly as I wished - let me try again. If the temple was rebuilt, and out of some remarkable coincidence the Ark of the Covenant was found, and the Levitical Administration was reinstituted, and the red heifer was available and all the relevent fact and figures where in place and ready - would you see fit to keep to the sacrifical system? What say you?? thanks, MJ |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 28, 2007 7:28:57 GMT -8
Reuel - Good to see you here! Its interesting you should bring up the point about Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Azariah ect. I too absolutely agree and furthermore tenaciously defend the fact the the Levitical Administration is not the basis for ones individual Salvation. Even according to the Sinai Covenant. Its seems we agree on this point. However - you didn't answer the question as directly as I wished - let me try again. If the temple was rebuilt, and out of some remarkable coincidence the Ark of the Covenant was found, and the Levitical Administration was reinstituted, and the red heifer was available and all the relevent fact and figures where in place and ready - would you see fit to keep to the sacrifical system? What say you?? thanks, MJ Shalom Matty, I know you addressed your question to Reuel, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents real quick. I would argue that sacrifices have always been symbolic and are therefore to be kept 100%. There is a thread about this here: Where Do Sacrifices Fit Into Our Practice? |
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Post by MattyJames on Mar 2, 2007 16:01:05 GMT -8
Hi Matty, I have the same 'delemna'. I know the says that Aaron will be a priesthood forever. Forever means forever. Then you have Yeshua the High Priest, Prophet and King. if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.We all know that this points to Yeshua, the Annointed High Priest. I do understand the sacrificial system at the present time. What I'm battling with is that the way I'm seeing it is that Yeshua is our High Priest. Then again scripture says that Aaron will be forever a priesthood. I guess I'm battling with how can Yeshua and the priesthood co-exist? Marc Reuel - Good to see you here! Its interesting you should bring up the point about Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Azariah ect. I too absolutely agree and furthermore tenaciously defend the fact the the Levitical Administration is not the basis for ones individual Salvation. Even according to the Sinai Covenant. Its seems we agree on this point. However - you didn't answer the question as directly as I wished - let me try again. If the temple was rebuilt, and out of some remarkable coincidence the Ark of the Covenant was found, and the Levitical Administration was reinstituted, and the red heifer was available and all the relevent fact and figures where in place and ready - would you see fit to keep to the sacrifical system? What say you?? thanks, MJ Well, lets go a step further. If Melchizedek was the High priest at the time of Abraham, what makes us think that he LOST his position of 'High Priest'? If 'Psa 110:4 Jehovah has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.' is correct, then Yeshua was Aarons High Priest. Therefore, just as Daniel, Ezra, Azariah ect still found a place of reconciliation, and therefore had a mediator between them and 'The Father', OUTSIDE THE WORKINGS OF THE LEVITICAL PREISTHOOD; then we too, have found ourselves mediatored by the same High Priest. In this way, the Levitical Preisthood and the Order of Melchizedek can effectivly work, side by side. Just as there were other orders that existed UNDERNEATH the Order of Aaron. Eg: Kohath, Gershon and Merari. NB: The Uppercase is not for shouting, purely to highlight the point. What do you think?? MJ |
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Post by MattyJames on Mar 2, 2007 16:06:06 GMT -8
Shalom Matty, I know you addressed your question to Reuel, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents real quick. I would argue that sacrifices have always been symbolic and are therefore to be kept 100%. There is a thread about this here: Where Do Sacrifices Fit Into Our Practice?[/quote] Yes, sorry to harrass Reuel, but I too am comming more and more to that pursuation. Just as the bread and wine is symbolic, just as the Moedim is symbolic, so to is the Sacrifical system symbolic. Its a big step to take, especially from one whose faith originated in Christianity.  I've some more thinking to do before I reach any definates. Thanks for your reply. MJ |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 5, 2007 9:25:05 GMT -8
Yes, sorry to harrass Reuel, but I too am comming more and more to that pursuation. Just as the bread and wine is symbolic, just as the Moedim is symbolic, so to is the Sacrifical system symbolic. Its a big step to take, especially from one whose faith originated in Christianity. I've some more thinking to do before I reach any definates. Thanks for your reply. MJ No problem. It is a huge step to take. It can be especially difficult while coming out of Chri*tianity. It is difficult to unlearn everything we were taught, but I believe that it is part of the refining process that prepares us to have a right walk with HaShem. Shalom, Natanel |
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Post by MattyJames on Mar 17, 2007 2:11:29 GMT -8
Yes, sorry to harrass Reuel, but I too am comming more and more to that pursuation. Just as the bread and wine is symbolic, just as the Moedim is symbolic, so to is the Sacrifical system symbolic. Its a big step to take, especially from one whose faith originated in Christianity. I've some more thinking to do before I reach any definates. Thanks for your reply. MJ No problem. It is a huge step to take. It can be especially difficult while coming out of Chri*tianity. It is difficult to unlearn everything we were taught, but I believe that it is part of the refining process that prepares us to have a right walk with HaShem. Shalom, Natanel Yes Indeed. I believe its called 'pruneing'. MJ |
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Sean
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Post by Sean on Sept 20, 2007 12:06:37 GMT -8
I think of it like this. It's like when a company announces a new product that will be released at sometime in the future. They may take advance orders, in which case you can pay for one of whatever it is they are selling, and from then on, you technically own one of that product, although you don't necessarily have it in your hands right then. I think it's possibly a bit progressive, like G-d's revelation of Himself through the scriptures. Obviously the promise is there, but we cannot see that it has been manifested to any degree yet.
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Post by YHVHSFOOL on Sept 22, 2007 12:35:15 GMT -8
I'm new so I will try to be brief. IN studying for the Day of Atonement, which many of you are holding today, I noticed a couple of things. There are two sin sacrafices held for this day. Yeshua paid the atonement and entered into the Holy of Holies to be our perpetual HIghPriest. One reason for the torn veil. There was still the shedding of blood from another sin sacrafice on this day. It was a curse on the unbelieving generation of Yeshua's day that the temple was destroyed. Another reason for the torn veil. In some ways we are still under that curse. Yeshua in fullfilling some of the conditions of the first covenant added new articles (it is not just your action but also heart attitude as exampled in the sermon on the mount) Thereby beginning a new covenant sealed with His atoneing blood. Neither are fulflled until a later date and neither will expire in eternity. Whether the next Temple occurs on Earth or comes from heaven it is clear that during Yeshua's reign there will be sacrafices again. It is part of the renewed blessing for true following. We can't forget that if we truly believe these are the last days, that part of the conditions is a famine for truly understanding . Which means we need to pray not only for Atonement during this season, but the return of the High Priest to fullfill the placing of understanding on our heart. The rub is that the Day of the Lord must come first, which will mean martydom for many and a remnant left. There is still a priesthood that operates in the oder of Levi, and Melchizadek as MattyJames stated together it just seems Yeshua is the one who now remains in the Holy Place always an intercessor, something no mere man was rightous enough to do. I know most don't use the i-net on Sabbath but being 120 miles from the nearest believing body it is part of our means of studying on this day, and connection to obsevant believers. It is all two cents until the famine ends and Yeshua once again teaches the way of Father YHVH |
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says that Aaron will be a priesthood forever. Forever means forever.
I've some more thinking to do before I reach any definates. 
