What Is Literal vs. Spiritual Israel?

[Yochanah]

Please, would someone explain the difference between literal Israel of the flesh and spiritual Israel?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

My understanding of scripture is that physical Israel are direct descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Although, if we count Ruth as a physical descendent than we can see that those whom join themselves to the G'd of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob can eventually be part of the physical seed of Israel. Now of course, the physical seed of Israel can also be Spiritual Israel.

The TeNaKh tells us that anyone of the nations may join themselves to The G'd of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and inturn are obsorbed into the commonwealth of Israel (becoming part of Israel). So, could you call such a one physical Israel?...I would say so, as many that are considered physical Israel have become this by conversion through the centuries. But, some would disagree.

There has of course always been a spiritual Israel since Israel has existed. Of course this would include anybody whom joins themselves to the G'd of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and truly serves Him...including His Messiah. One thing is for sure, you cannot take part of the Brit Hadashah (newest addition to the covenants) unless you become apart of Israel. For the New Covenant has only been made with the house of Judah, and the house of Israel...

"Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"
- Jeremiah 31:31

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHVH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their G'd, and they shall be my people."
- Jeremiah 31:33

"For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith YHVH. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHVH; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a G'd, and they shall be to me a people"
- Hebrews 8:8-10

The reason I have taken the time to go over these scriptures is to demonstrate that all true believers have actually been abosrbed into Israel, and are apart of it's commonwealth, it's covenants, and promises. Since this is true, and those absorbed are actual citizens...are they not now part of physical Israel (being both spiritual, and physical)?? This is just the way I see it.

Any different ideas?

Shalom,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

Thank you, brother Reuel. This is the way I see it also. My concern of what difference there is between the spiritual and the literal is in regard to the rebuilding of the earthly temple in Jerusalem. I have heard many reports that there are plans in the making for doing this, and indeed, this is why there is such fighting going on in Israel today. That the Moslems want to keep the temple mount to themselves and the Israelis want it back. Do I understand this correctly? If this is true and our Righteous Redeemer wants the earthly temple rebuild I am wondering why would He allow such fighting to go on. Yes in Biblical times this occured but He has told us that now our bodies are the Temple of the Set-apart Spirit. Is this right? Please help me to understand.
Ahavah,
Yochanah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

We should probably start another thread on the subject of the coming future temple, and the priesthood. But, my quick answer would be that we are a different temple, than that of the one described in the book of Ezekiel, and that of the past. We don't replace The Temple as we see that when it was still standing the disciples being Spirit filled continued to honor it. We are simply another dwelling place for the Ruach HaKodesh. Also, the Levitical Priesthood is an everlasting priesthood, and has not been replaced. If the covenant with Levi can be anulled (the scriptures say it cannot) than our covenant with Messiah can also be disolved. Let me know if you would like to continue to discuss these possibilites, and we can start another thread.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

Thank you Reuel. Yes, please, I have many questions. ;D

Admin:
The following post has been moved to this thread as it is better suited here[/b]

Shalom dear brother and sister in Yeshua haMachiach,
I love the Israeli people as much as I love people of all nations. Each man, woman and child born on the face of this earth is so loved of the Father that He sent His only-begotton Son to take the penalty of death each one deserves and paid the highest Ransom Price Himself. We must pray for all mankind, that their hearts will be prepared to receive the Good News and that their eyes will be opened to preceive it.
I know what I am about to say will no doubt push some buttons but I beg of you to pray with all your hearts before reading any more of this post. May the Set-apart Spirit of the Most High bless you with discernment and empty you of any preconceived ideas and may you except this message with the love of the Set-apart Spirit of Elohim...

We are to pray for the peace of "New" Jerusalem.
"Him that overcometh [in the final showdown between good and evil] will I make a pillar in the temple of my Elohim [will we be made stationary pillars in the earthly temple?], and he shall go no more out [does this mean like statutes we will remain in the earthly temple or rather no more will we go out from the Father's presence due to having sinned?]: and I will write upon him the name of my Elohim, and the name of the city of my Elohim, which is NEW Jerusalem, WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN [not made here by mortal man] from my Elohim [being made by His own hands to the perfection that the earthly temple was only a pale model of]: and I will write upon him My new name." Rev. 3:12
[New Jerusalem is not already here, to be rebuilt, only to be destroyed again in the final destruction of the planet] "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: FOR THE FIRST HEAVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea." Rev. 21:1 How can we be made pillars in a literal temple? No! Israel "the congregation of beleivers" is not Israel in the Middle East occupied by only 15% religious and the rest of the population being secular. How can the Set-apart Spirit bless mass rejection of Him? No. Israel the church is spiritual, made up of " they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yeshua." Rev. 14:12. And they make up, "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from Elohim out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Rev. 21:2
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, TILL the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a LITTLE season. And I saw thrones, and they [the 144,000] sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:["Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:3] and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua, and for the word of Elohim, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads [thought], or in their hands [action]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [Where? in heavenly Jersusalem. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. No secret rapture here, no seven years to get your act together] This is the first resurrection [those who live in Christ before they died will be brought up in this "first resurrection. "]...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Master shall not prevent them which are asleep [dead in Messiah and resting until He comes].[" For the Master himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Elohim: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Master in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Master." [Forever be with Him] 1 Thes. 4:15-17] "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of Elohim and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years [He already said we shall be with Him forever so where will we be? Standing as statutes being literal pillars in an earthly temple made by the hands of man? No! Read on my dear and wonderful friends]. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:[Now we know that, except the dead in Messiah and the 144,000 which were alive when He came all of these were raised into heaven, the wicked were destroyed and so this must be the second resurrection, that of those who died NOT in Messiah] the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, [having descended with Yeshua AS the NEW JERUSALEM] and the beloved city: and fire came down from Elohim out of heaven, and devoured them [the second death]. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:2-10

It is the intent of the enemy of the Most High to turn the attention of the children of Yah, blessed be His name, away from the heavenly sanctuary and the spiritual and literal work that is being done there on their behalf. He has done this for many by turning their eyes to literal Israel, keeping them so occupied with the daily events that they have no time to study the word of prophecy to understand the difference between what is spiritual and literal.
But our Heavenly Father shows no favoritism. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:7-8
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:" 1 Peter 2:9
"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thes. 5:20-21
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of YHWH, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him:" Hebrews 12:5
"For whom YHWH loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth." Hebrews 12:6
Praise His Holy Name!
My Love through Messiah,
Yochanah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom beloved sister,

Thank you for sharing, although I would like to address some of your statements.

You stated..

We must pray for all mankind, that their hearts will be prepared to receive the Good News and that their eyes will be opened to preceive it.

Yes, but the scripture admonishes us to do this to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.

We are to pray for the peace of "New" Jerusalem.

I would need to see where the word of YHVH says to pray for the peace of the "New Jerusalem". Clearly the scripture tells us to pray for the peace of the literal Jerusalem. Furthermore, the new Jerusalem will be located at the physical Jerusalem for it will come to the Earth, and not us to it.

"Him that overcometh [in the final showdown between good and evil] will I make a pillar in the temple of my Elohim [will we be made stationary pillars in the earthly temple?], and he shall go no more out [does this mean like statutes we will remain in the earthly temple or rather no more will we go out from the Father's presence due to having sinned?]:

Scripture describes two different temples which will come at different times. One before the culmination of the thousand year reign of Messiah, and one at the end which will come down after HaSatan is bound forever.

[New Jerusalem is not already here, to be rebuilt, only to be destroyed again in the final destruction of the planet] "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: FOR THE FIRST HEAVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea."

The New Jerusaelm will not descend until after the thousand year reign of Messiah.

Rev. 21:1 How can we be made pillars in a literal temple? No!

Again, we will not be pillars until the New Jerusalem Descends.

Israel "the congregation of beleivers" is not Israel in the Middle East occupied by only 15% religious and the rest of the population being secular.

The Father is bringing them to a place where they will be believers. The secular nature of physical Israel will change.

Israel the church is spiritual, made up of " they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yeshua." Rev. 14:12. And they make up, "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from Elohim out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Rev. 21:2

It is just a matter of time before physical Israel joins us in this. The church does not replace physical Israel as Israel. We are part of the common wealth of Israel regardless if they believe, or not. All throughout Israel's history there has been believing, and unbelieving Israel, yet YHVH dwelt both in The Tabernacle, and The Temple. Remember, the scriptures state that He does not do this for their sakes, but for His names sake.

And I saw thrones, and they [the 144,000] sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:["Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

Keep in mind that the scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are of the physical tribes of Israel.

:[Now we know that, except the dead in Messiah and the 144,000 which were alive when He came all of these were raised into heaven, the wicked were destroyed and so this must be the second resurrection, that of those who died NOT in Messiah] the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The scripture does not clearly state what you have in your above statement.

It is the intent of the enemy of the Most High to turn the attention of the children of Yah, blessed be His name, away from the heavenly sanctuary and the spiritual and literal work that is being done there on their behalf.

I would say to the believer that -everything- is spiritual. The Temple will be rebuilt, and it will be G-d's will, and The Temple Priesthood will resume as we can clearly see in the book of Ezekiel. We can discuss more of this in the proper thread.

He has done this for many by turning their eyes to literal Israel, keeping them so occupied with the daily events that they have no time to study the word of prophecy to understand the difference between what is spiritual and literal.

I would say that what is spiritual is what G'd is doing with physical Israel, and we should be focusing on physical Israel in regards to blessing them, praying for them, and fighting their enemies. Listen to brother Sha'ul as he speaks by the Ruach HaKodesh...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
- Romans 10:1

I would ask, whom is Sha'ul speaking of? Spiritual Israel? No...physical Israel. Should we not have the same heart desire? Shouldn't we be actively be working to hasten this? Has G'd cast off His physical people??...

"I say then, Hath G'd cast away his people? G'd forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
G'd hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..."
- Romans 11:1-2

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? G'd forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
- Romans 11:1-12

The restoration of the Jewish people will be life to the world! This is what is center in prophecy. The Jewish people are indeed central...For you cannot even think of enjoying the New Jerusalem until the Jewish people are restored...

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
- Hosea 5:15

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of YHVH."
- Matthew 23:37-39

In conclusion, we should have a healthy repsect, and love for the Jewish people as we can see in the following passages...

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."
- Romans 11:17-18

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
- Romans 11:25

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of G'd are without repentance."
- Romans 11:28-29

Keep in mind when you read the above underlined passage that it speaks of unbelieving Israel.

I apologize for the length of my response. For future replies let's keep our posts a bit more brief. It will be easier for people to read, and for us to focus on the subject at hand.

Ahava, v'Shalom B'shem Yeshua,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

Please forgive my over statement dear brother and famly in Messiah. The Scriptures do not say pray for "New" Jerusalem as I said it did.
One the other hand there is only one place that I could find where it tell us to pray for Jerusalem, at all! This is in Ps. 122:6. If we read this verse in context, King David is singing praises to YHWH our Elohim, blessed be His name, for all of the protection and victories He has given Jerusalem and now they should pray for peace.
Dear brother could you give text please supporting your statement that we are to pray for the Jews first?
You stated, "The New Jerusaelm will not descend until after the thousand year reign of Messiah." And I agree and have stated this in other posts.
You said, "Scripture describes two different temples which will come at different times. One before the culmination of the thousand year reign of Messiah, and one at the end which will come down after HaSatan is bound forever."
My post on 07-02 under The Temple and the Priesthood will give texts on this subject.
You wrote, "The Father is bringing them to a place where they will be believers. The secular nature of physical Israel will change."
Is this a prophcey? Joel 2:28 says we will all prophcey in the last days...are you a prophet? Can you support this with Bible text?
Brother I am very concerned when someone tells me that our Beloved Author of Love will force someone to beleive. Belief in Him is a freedom of choice, even for the secular Jews that our Heavenly Father will not infringe upon. While there will be many a Jew "grafted" back on to the Vine, I can not find text saying that in the last days YHWH, blessed be His name will make the Jews nation as a whole become believers in His Son.
Brother I enjoy studying His Word with you. Blessed is He for you and this forum.
You wrote, "Keep in mind that the scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are of the physical tribes of Israel." Can you please give text for this? My understanding is that when the gospel went to all nations, Gentile and Jew alike became spiritual Israel. The Jews were scattered all over the world after the destruction of Herod's Temple, the third and last earthly temple. Nearly everyone I have met that has come back to and excepts Messiah as their King has some Jewish blood in them. The word "Jew" comes from the name "Judah", not Levi. If the 144,000 are made up of the LITERAL 12 TRIBES why are only the Jews honored by the majority?
I wrote, ":[Now we know that, except the dead in Messiah and the 144,000 which were alive when He came all of these were raised into heaven, the wicked were destroyed and so this must be the second resurrection, that of those who died NOT in Messiah] the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
I admit my wording is not very clear, please forgive me.

And you answered, "The scripture does not clearly state what you have in your above statement."
But my beloved brother, it does say this. Please allow me to share it with you...
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes. 4:17 (KJV) "Here is the patience of the saints [i.e. 144,000]: here are they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yeshua. Rev. 14:12 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of Elohim and of Yeshua, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Rev. 20:6 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sleepermongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev. 21:8
You wrote, "I would say to the believer that -everything- is spiritual. The Temple will be rebuilt, and it will be G-d's will, and The Temple Priesthood will resume as we can clearly see in the book of Ezekiel."
I can't find text to support what you wrote but Scripture says,
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of Elohim, and that the Spirit of Elohim dwelleth in you?" 1 Cor. 3:16
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:3
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of Elohim, and ye are not your own?" 1 Cor. 6:19
Yes, everything divine is spiritual.
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:" 1 Peter 2:9
Yes! There is a literal preisthood here on earth and it is the beleivers in Messiah that keep the .
In conclusion, I am Jewish and do have a healthy respect for and do pray for my people...but my love is not limited to my Jewish family but extends to every man, woman and child born upon this earth that are my brothers and sisters, and which Messiah gave His life that every one of us could chose to accept the Priceless Ransom that He paid.
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that Elohim is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34
Ahavah and Shalom,
Yochanah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Dear brother could you give text please supporting your statement that we are to pray for the Jews first?

I don't think that I said to pray for the Jew first, but the Gospel is to the Jew first. For true restoration will not happen until they are restored. Although, this was Sha'ul's (Paul's) heart which was led of the Spirit...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
- Romans 10:1

You wrote, "The Father is bringing them to a place where they will be believers. The secular nature of physical Israel will change."
Is this a prophcey? Joel 2:28 says we will all prophcey in the last days...are you a prophet? Can you support this with Bible text?

There are numerous scriptures in the TeNaKh that say that G'd will gather them back to Eretz Yisrael, and we are currently seeing this happen. There are also many scriptures that point to the fact that G'd will, and is preparing them for reconciliation. Here are just a few...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
- Romans 10:1

The prayer of righteous man availeth much, right?

"I say then, Hath G'd cast away his people? G'd forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
G'd hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..."
- Romans 11:1-2

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? G'd forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
- Romans 11:1-12

Their fulness has not come to pass, therefore YHVH is preparing them.

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
- Hosea 5:15

This has not happened fully...He is preparing them.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of YHVH."
- Matthew 23:37-39

As a people they have not done what Yeshua said was needed before His return. He is preparing them.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
- Romans 11:25

He is preparing His people.

Brother I am very concerned when someone tells me that our Beloved Author of Love will force someone to beleive.

Just as He prepared us...He is preparing them.

While there will be many a Jew "grafted" back on to the Vine, I can not find text saying that in the last days YHWH, blessed be His name will make the Jews nation as a whole become believers in His Son.

The following passages suggest otherwise...

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
- Hosea 5:15

The above passage is in reference to physical Israel, and when they ackowledge their offence, they will be reconciled to YHVH.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? G'd forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
- Romans 11:1-12

The last underlined portion points to their restoration.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
- Romans 11:25

Again, the last underlined portions points to their restoration. And, finally when Sha'ul (Paul) was speaking of His unsaved bretheren he said...

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
- Romans 11:26

Continued...

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

You wrote, "Keep in mind that the scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are of the physical tribes of Israel." Can you please give text for this?

"Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

Nearly everyone I have met that has come back to and excepts Messiah as their King has some Jewish blood in them.

Many certainly claim this with very little evidence...if any. DNA tests, and geneolgies can prove this today, but I have yet to see a DNA test, or a geneology from anyone whom has claimed this. I understand that much of the geneologies have been hidden, but if one cannot find this information, they should not state that they are a physical descendent of Israel.

The word "Jew" comes from the name "Judah", not Levi. If the 144,000 are made up of the LITERAL 12 TRIBES why are only the Jews honored by the majority?

Who says that all people called Jews, are from Judah. They most likely are from many of the different tribes.

I wrote, ":[Now we know that, except the dead in Messiah and the 144,000 which were alive when He came all of these were raised into heaven, the wicked were destroyed and so this must be the second resurrection, that of those who died NOT in Messiah] the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
I admit my wording is not very clear, please forgive me.

And you answered, "The scripture does not clearly state what you have in your above statement."
But my beloved brother, it does say this. Please allow me to share it with you...
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes. 4:17 (KJV)

The timing, and meaning of the above passage is debatable, and with prophecy we generally know exactly what it means once it happens.

The Temple will be rebuilt, and it will be G-d's will, and The Temple Priesthood will resume as we can clearly see in the book of Ezekiel."
I can't find text to support what you wrote but Scripture says,
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of Elohim, and that the Spirit of Elohim dwelleth in you?" 1 Cor. 3:16
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:3
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of Elohim, and ye are not your own?" 1 Cor. 6:19
Yes, everything divine is spiritual.

We can discuss this in the proper thread which I have supporting scripture.

I am Jewish and do have a healthy respect for and do pray for my people...but my love is not limited to my Jewish family but extends to every man, woman and child born upon this earth that are my brothers and sisters, and which Messiah gave His life that every one of us could chose to accept the Priceless Ransom that He paid.

I agree that we should love all people, and bring the Gospel to all people, but as the scripture exhorts, and as we saw both Yeshua, and Paul do, we should make an effort to bring the The Good News to the Jew First, and then to the Gentile (Romans 1:16). For I believe when the Jewish people are restored, the Good News will go out like never before...

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
- Romans 11:12

And it will be as life from the dead...

"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"
- Romans 11:15

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that Elohim is no respecter of persons:"Acts 10:34

Obviously the above passage and the following passage have to be reconciled...

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Messiah: for it is the power of G'd unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
- Romans 1:16

Acts 10:34 actually speaks to how one is saved, and that Gentiles can be saved in the same manner as a native Israelite. But, G'd also has a system, and order. For example are we all equal in regards to position? Can the Wife be the husband? Can a deacon be the Pastor? Can a servant be the King? In this sense G'd does respect their position.

Brother I enjoy studying His Word with you. Blessed is He for you and this forum.

Yochanah, I also have enjoyed are conversation Although, let's try to keep our responses brief, and address one issue at a time so that our posts are not so long.

Shabbat shalom achoit

Reuel

[Kathy]

Thank you for admitting me . I have a ? in the rules it said something about S.D.A.,s teaching a replacement theology , I was raised in that church and donot remember being taught that can you explain what it is (replacement theology )? Also isnt literal versus spiritual just a heart condition ?May G-d today bless Isreal with his peace and open eyes and ears to hear . Thank G-d

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Kathy,

Does not the SDA Church teach that the "Church" has replaced physical Israel? The promises have indeed been entrusted to both physical and spiritual Israel as they in many cases are one in the same. The Father has prophesied that He would bring them back into the land as He is doing today because of these promises. The believing Goyim (Gentiles/Spiritual Israel) will enter into the gates through physical and spiritual Israel. He whom has ears to hear, let him hear....

"He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from G'd,
having the glory of G'd. Her light was like a most precious stone, as if it was a jasper stone, clear as crystal; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Yisra'el."
- Rev. 21:10-12

Notice how one is to enter into the Holy City, the Heavenly Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). Behold the future....

"Yes, many peoples and strong nations will come to seek YHVH of Armies in Yerushalayim, and to entreat the favor of YHVH."
Thus says YHVH of Armies: "In those days, ten men will take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they will take hold of the skirt of him who is a Jew, saying, 'We will go with you, for we have heard that G’d is with you.'"
- Zechariah 8:22-23

No doubt these people to whom these Goyim (Gentiles) are taking hold of are not only those with whom have had a change of heart...they are also described as "Yehudi" (Jew).

Shalom aleychem achoit
(Peace be upon you sister),

Reuel

[Kathy]

yes, this is true they do teach that, I guess I just forgot , so long ago I went to their private schools . G_d has changed my heart so on many things , when I became a christian 25 years ago , G_d just changed my heart 360% it was an amazing change and I was studying Romans and teach an adult class at church , I was just blown out of the water, how Yeshua had done it all

[Chizuk Emunah]

"Yes, many peoples and strong nations will come to seek YHVH of Armies in Yerushalayim, and to entreat the favor of YHVH."
Thus says YHVH of Armies: "In those days, ten men will take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they will take hold of the skirt of him who is a Jew, saying, 'We will go with you, for we have heard that G’d is with you.'"
- Zechariah 8:22-23

May that day come quickly and within our time.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

v'

[Rick]

Reuel, I thought you might find this interesting as it fits well with your posts in this thread.

11 of 22 end time prophecies already fulfilled:

1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1.
Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. Since that time, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Yet as the Bible said, the nation of Israel would be reborn.
The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the "latter days." It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Some of these are listed here.
Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the signs from God’s Word being fulfilled exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At precisely 4 pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, "The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended." Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once, exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under attack by the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, and Iraqi forces.

3. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the "United Nations" approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was "brought forth out of the nations"—the children of Israel from many nations have been returning to their ancient homeland.

4. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4.
Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know the time we are in. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. We are not setting any date; however, it seems clear from Israel’s rebirth and the signs of the times— that we are living in the generation in which the Rapture and Tribulation will come and catch most people by surprise. Are you ready?

5. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 5 out of 5.
Note: God will spew them out. Many ministers and people that call themselves a Christian will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most preachers use little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, on the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. Many (so-called Christians) are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Some famous ministers and Bible schools think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

6.
The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. These fit the
people of today perfectly, but did not fit the people of fifty years ago. Here are some:


A.

Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect.


B. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
C.

People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—"I do it for me"?

D. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.

E. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
G.

People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?

H.



People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto "In God we trust" has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.


I.






People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 6 out of 6. How could you have any doubts at this point?
Note: Fifty years ago, many people seldom locked their doors at night. There was little or no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.



7. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 7 out of 7.
Note: It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2004) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

8. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press, but today it is true. That's 8 out of 8.
Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or "among all nations." In addition, the Gospel is available by short-wave radio nearly everywhere in the world.

9. In the "latter days" when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 9 out of 9.
Note: How could the Bible have foretold the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass? As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN.

10. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 10 out of 10.

11. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Economic Community today (the EEC), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44. That’s 11 out of 11. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions made thousands of years ago—with God nothing is impossible. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic should see the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are nearing the time of the end.