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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 3, 2004 16:03:43 GMT -8
I believe the bible teaches that all men have free will, because all men sin and God tempts no man to sin. Although, I believe God has a preset/ foreordained plan that cannot be altered. I believe God in his infinite wisdom allowed for all possible decisions that man would make, yet tailored His plan so that it would be carried out an any circumstance. It boggles the mind but I believe this is the case. Therefore, God can know the beginning from the end, and even tell us what will happen in the future. And, at the same time we are free to choose our own way.
Far as election goes... I believe all that are saved in Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, and Him only, are predestined to take part in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't believe certain people were destined to be lost necessarily. But, those who are saved will partake in what was predestined for them in Christ. What do you think? Any body know some good biblical refrences??
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by yeshua's homeboy on May 13, 2004 23:44:49 GMT -8
I have a friend at work that I have been witnessing to. He is named David. David lives a life very contradictory to a  based life style. He is openly homosexual. He started asking me questions about my eating habits and I think noticed my fringes and like a lot of people asked If I was Jewish. This has since opened up a line of communication between him and me. After talking to him one day about how I walk out my faith he told me underneath his breath that he use to be a music leader at a Pentecostal church. We have since gotten into long conversations about Yeshua faith etc. I can see that there is a part of him that longs to return to Yeshua but I also believe that he does not want to face up to his sin. He actually knows quite a bit about the old and New Testament more than a lot of Christians know but he definitely does not walk it. I believe that he sees something different in the way I walk than other believers in Yeshua. He has asked many questions and I do my best to answer them. The other day he asked me If I thought that people were predestined or not. He made the argument that if we have a free will that why did YHWH harden pharahos heart. He said that YHWH hardened his heart therefore he was predestined to do evil. I told him that I had not studied that aspect of this scripture and that I would get him an answer to his question. I did my best to explain to him that although YHWH know the beginning and the end he still gives us a choice I have since studied this and think that I have an ok answer to this topic but would like all who are willing to share there thoughts on this subject. Maybe there are aspects I have not covered let? I will share My findings after I hear some other thoughts and responses. Ex 7:3 YHWH hardened pharaohs heart. Please pray that YHWH will give me wisdom in this situation. My friend David is more that willing to talk about faith etc. He invited me over to his house one day and all we talked about is Adoni and the Bible. I do however need wisdom. Especially considering his lifestyle goes against the . I can tell deep down he is very lonely and  . But this is to be expected when you are running from our Lord. TEXT |
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Post by yeshua's homeboy on May 13, 2004 23:52:05 GMT -8
 Predestination, and Election....  Romans 8: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (the passages before this show a good example of being called)
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 14, 2004 0:40:57 GMT -8
In regards to Pharaoh, and the hardening of his heart. YHVH simply confirmed him in his rebellion. Pharoah already thought he was a god, and would not submit to YHVH as he viewed Him as a rival. YHVH's judgments where against the god's of Egypt...including Pharaoh. Adonai did not take a totally innoccent man, and harden his heart so that he became evil...Pharoah was already evil. Pharoah's conscience was already seared, so Adonai gave him up, confirmed him, or hardened the current condition of his heart....
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause G'd shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be d**ned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2Thesalonians 2:10-12
Notice in verse 10 that previous to the wicked person's end result...they had an opportunity to recieve the love of the truth, and be saved. The book of 1Timothy put's it another way...
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" - 1Timothy 4:1-2
This shows that previously these individuals had a choice to choose good, or evil. But, they had chosen evil for so long that their conscience was seared. I believe that both of these passages can be applied to Pharoah.
Shalom brother,
Reuel
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Curt
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Post by Curt on May 25, 2004 15:46:26 GMT -8
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" This verse I believe does not say God is choosing who will be saved or who will not be saved. God would have all to be saved. Each person chooses to be saved or not saved by accepting Jesus's free gift of grace. Because God is all-knowing He does know ahead of time what choices we will make. The predestination is to be conformed to the image of His Son not to God choosing or making our decisions for ourselves. Those who He knew would choose life over death He predestined to be changed like unto Jesus. Conforming to Jesus's image is necessary in order to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus also told the wicked at His return and their judgement He did not know them. In order to be in Jesus's kingdom it is necessary that He knows you. Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. If the predestination is referring to the conforming our image to that of Jesus then it only makes sense that if His intentions are to conform us to His image, then He must first call us. He has called everyone, not eveyone is accepting that call. After He calls them He justifies them. Upon ressurection we will be glorified. mt. 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." The many are talking of all mankind. The few chosen are those who accept the calling. Ex 7:3 "YHWH hardened pharaohs heart." Yes God did harden pharaoh's heart like the sun can harden clay into pottery. The sun can also melt butter, or make flowers grow. It is the subject matter that determines the final result. God didn't choose for Pharaoh, he chose for himself. When God shined on him, He was shining on an individual who had made many wrong choices concerning God. If the Pharaoh's heart had been receptive , it wouldn't have been hardened.  |
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Post by kwbush on Jun 1, 2004 13:57:51 GMT -8
"Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" Question... stupid though it may be  Ummmmmmmmmmm... was there EVER anyone G-d DIDN'T foreknow? Soooooooooo... then who wouldn't be predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son? Just a stupid question though... |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 1, 2004 16:17:38 GMT -8
Welcome back kwbush! From what I understand, this scripture communicates that G'd predestined certain things, and attributes for those whom do believe in Messiah (who are filled with His Spirit)...I don't see these verses are speaking of everybody being predestined to either salvation, or d**nation. But of course, He knows the end result. In regards to my previous thought, we can see this demonstrated in the following passage... "For we are his workmanship, created in Yeshua The Messiah unto good works, which G'd hath before ordained that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 There is only one place that G'd has before ordained instructions, and a set of works for man, and they are found in His . Thus, we are pre-ordained to conform to the image of His son, and His . It is good to hear from you brother. Shalom aleychem, Reuel |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Jun 2, 2004 14:00:49 GMT -8
kwbush, ""Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" Question... stupid though it may be Ummmmmmmmmmm... was there EVER anyone G-d DIDN'T foreknow? Soooooooooo... then who wouldn't be predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son? Just a stupid question though... Curt: It's not a stupid question. Know in this verse means know on a relationship basis. Know in this verse doesn't mean know as in identity or I am aware of whom you are. Only the saved know Jesus in this way and only the saved our known by Jesus in this way. To be known on a relationship basis requires spending time with Jesus in prayer and Bible study. Those who wouldn't be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son are those wicked who choose not to accept His calling and do not take the time to know Him on a relationship basis. Jesus doen't know them on a relationship basis but He does know beforehand everybodys identity and He does know if they will be choosing to enter that relationship with Him. |
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Post by kwbush on Jun 2, 2004 15:05:01 GMT -8
:)Shalom Gentlepeople... (ya know we gotta stay PC... Hillary checks these boards daily! LOL!)
Anyhow, great replies! I'm not sure I agree though, but that's what makes the world go 'round... (did I say that? how corny!)
I think that's why there are 47 translations of scripture, 101 denominations etc., etc., hummmmm... that New World Translation is looking better and better...
Ummmmmmm... JUST KIDDING!!! My prayer request is that the Ruach would open our hearts and minds to G-d's truth and we would be receptive!
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Post by kwbush on Jun 2, 2004 15:07:45 GMT -8
Oh... by the way I must change my signature... please call me keith... but never late for supper!
thanx!
keith
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Post by yeshua's homeboy on Jun 4, 2004 10:46:20 GMT -8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of you have given great responces. Thank you. I belive that Pharoh’s heart was already hardened and Adoni just allowed it to stay in that state, If you look up the word harden in the strongs you could come up with this conclution.
A friend described this topic like this.
mt.
22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen. When an employer is hiring for a position many people are called to the position but usually only a few will have the proper requirement for the position. This is kind of like the Kingdome of YHWH, all are called but only a few are chosen.
8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 4, 2004 13:38:49 GMT -8
Welcome back Yeshua's homeboy! It is good see you on the boards  and good points. The scripture says that G'd so loved the world that He sent is Son that -whom so ever- believes would be saved... "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For G'd so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For G'd sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of G'd." - John 3:14-18 It does not say that G'd so loved those whom where already chosen, and that will endup believing any way... No, He sent His Son for -whosoever- would believe. If everybody is already predestined to either salvation, or d**nation...why all the exortation throughout the Bible to preach the Truth/Gospel?? Shalom, Reuel |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Jun 21, 2004 16:37:22 GMT -8
I found some more Bible verses which might illuminate the subject of the hardening of Pharoah's heart. This is the previous statement I made on May 25th 2004. "Ex 7:3 "YHWH hardened pharaohs heart on "Yes God did harden pharaoh's heart like the sun can harden clay into pottery. The sun can also melt butter, or make flowers grow. It is the subject matter that determines the final result. God didn't choose for Pharaoh, he chose for himself. When God shined on him, He was shining on an individual who had made many wrong choices concerning God. If the Pharaoh's heart had been receptive , it wouldn't have been hardened." Curt: New verses: Hebrews 3:8 "Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness." Hebrews 3:12 "Beware, brethern; lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called Today' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin. In other words we can have are hearts hardened as was that of the Phaoah's by fooling ourselves about what we are really doing which is sinning. |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 22, 2004 13:15:44 GMT -8
"Yes God did harden pharaoh's heart like the sun can harden clay into pottery. The sun can also melt butter, or make flowers grow. It is the subject matter that determines the final result. God didn't choose for Pharaoh, he chose for himself. When God shined on him, He was shining on an individual who had made many wrong choices concerning God. If the Pharaoh's heart had been receptive , it wouldn't have been hardened." That is an exquisite explanation by metaphor. The one thing I would like to add is that the heart of clay can become butter if it allows the Holy Spirit to change it by the power of God. And, yes, God knows if the heart will be receptive to that change. Only God can allow everyone to make the own choice and yet know what that choice will be. We are the ones who still have to learn to make our choice and live or die by the consequences. |
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Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 26, 2004 12:23:03 GMT -8
Shalom all,
this is a question I had a long time ago, and at best we can guess, His ways are higher than ours so we can't judge his ways always because we can't see the big picture, Here is my thoughts,
One is that mabye as one says you made me mad or another observes that someone made you mad, it doesn't mean that they actually made them mad. THem being mad was a choice in response to the actions of another, so mabye in response to YHWH's actions it made pharoah's heart harden, that still being HIS response to what was happening. THis would make the most sense.
But, mabye not as he chose Israel as his inheritance, not all people. I think this is a misconception of two things, Isaiah 56 alows that anyone can join themselves to the promise to Israel if they keep the sabbath, take hold of Israels covenant, and do things that pleas YHWH, so that no one can say I didn't get a chance to be a part of his kingdom, but just because anyone can join doesn't mean it is for everyone. It has always been for Israel, others may join but Yahushuah said he came for the lost sheep of the tribes of Israel.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Christianity gets this confused with we have to get everybody, when he called to him a people and I don't think all are called. Just as the Levites (vyeekra) means the called they were a certain group of people not just everybody, that goes against the verse that many are called but few chosen, it doesn't say all are called.
understanding the differences between that anyone can join but not all are called its the key I think to understanding the concept of this.
Finally, predestination I look at like this. Again it seems most confusion is by trying to mix two concepts, YHWH knows what we will choose It doesn't mean he is controlling it. It's like if you saw a movie, you know what is going to happen next time you see it but it doesn't mean you are controlling it. He works outside of the dimmension of time and knows the aleph and the tao the begining and end of everything. But we cannot possible understand his ways or reasoning.
shalom
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based life style. He is openly homosexual. He started asking me questions about my eating habits and I think noticed my fringes and like a lot of people asked If I was Jewish. This has since opened up a line of communication between him and me. After talking to him one day about how I walk out my faith he told me underneath his breath that he use to be a music leader at a Pentecostal church. We have since gotten into long conversations about Yeshua faith etc. I can see that there is a part of him that longs to return to Yeshua but I also believe that he does not want to face up to his sin. He actually knows quite a bit about the old and New Testament more than a lot of Christians know but he definitely does not walk it. I believe that he sees something different in the way I walk than other believers in Yeshua. He has asked many questions and I do my best to answer them. The other day he asked me If I thought that people were predestined or not. He made the argument that if we have a free will that why did YHWH harden pharahos heart. He said that YHWH hardened his heart therefore he was predestined to do evil. I told him that I had not studied that aspect of this scripture and that I would get him an answer to his question. I did my best to explain to him that although YHWH know the beginning and the end he still gives us a choice I have since studied this and think that I have an ok answer to this topic but would like all who are willing to share there thoughts on this subject. Maybe there are aspects I have not covered let? I will share My findings after I hear some other thoughts and responses.
. But this is to be expected when you are running from our Lord.
