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Post by Nachshon on Sept 24, 2006 8:40:53 GMT -8
There are two things I've wondered about. I'm not denying that either one is true, but I'm curious about what in TaNaKH prepares us for:
Mashiakh being Ben YHWH and
for drinking Mashiakh's blood?
Shalom,
David
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Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Sept 24, 2006 13:01:06 GMT -8
There are two things I've wondered about. I'm not denying that either one is true, but I'm curious about what in TaNaKH prepares us for: Mashiakh being Ben YHWH and for drinking Mashiakh's blood? Shalom, David Surely you jest! Had Yeshua cut his flesh and caught the blood in a cup and cut each of his disciples a slice of that flesh and passed the cup, do you really believe he would have had a single taker? He would have been taken to the brow and prepared for stoning! I ask you how many times do you want his name and mission to be in Tanach before you accept that he is all through it? Isn't the son of God mentioned in Daniel? Yes surely you jest! Shalom |
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Post by Nachshon on Sept 24, 2006 13:49:25 GMT -8
I'm not Catholic, and I do not believe in transubstantiation. But in an allegorical sense, what prepares us to drink blood?
Yes, the son of God is mentioned in Daniel, but then the sons of God are mentioned in Genesis, and I don't think any of us believe that they were God Himself made flesh.
Shalom,
David
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Post by Dogface Of Judah on Sept 24, 2006 18:36:56 GMT -8
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
And there you have it in John 6:63. It is spirit not flesh, i.e blood and fingers and toes or whatnot.
And yes Yeshua would have been killed(due to the law) like Pioneer said. The disiples were confused at this hard saying and thought literaly instead of spritually.
Ed
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Post by Nachshon on Sept 24, 2006 20:42:44 GMT -8
Pioneer, so you're saying that Mashiakh was not God made flesh?
I see the preparation for the allegorical eating of the flesh of a sacrifice, but there is absolutely no allegorical preparation for drinking the blood of a sacrifice.
Ed, I almost see what you're saying. Could you elaborate?
Shalom,
David
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Post by Mark on Sept 25, 2006 16:24:14 GMT -8
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Sept 25, 2006 17:54:35 GMT -8
I know, we always seem to get back to that huh?
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Post by Mark on Oct 13, 2006 5:34:13 GMT -8
Sommething that may be helpful is is the Passover Seder.
On the Seder tray there is a cloth napkin with three pockets into which are inserted three whole pieces of matzah (unleavened bread). This napkin is refered to as the Unity. During the service, the middle matzah is taken out of the Unity and is broken in half. Part is returned to the Unity and the other half is to be eaten by everyone at the table. The part to be eaten is known as the Afikomen. This tradition was started after the Temple was destroyed and there was no longer any way of biblically preparing the Passover lamb. The Afikomen represents the Passover lamb and is to be completely consumed- none of it left until morning. It is understood that this is the bread that Messiah broke and offered to His disciples, saying, "This is my body... eat all of it."
The cup of wine that Messiah took is of some greater speculation because there are four cups at the table which are drank during the Seder. Two are before the meal: the Cup of Promise and the Cup of Plagues. Two are after the meal: the Cup of Redemption and the Cup of Praise. One hypothesis is that Messiah Yeshua used the third cup, the Cup of Redemption, when He said, "This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." This would be completely appropriate and needs little further explanation. The same would suggest that He did not drink the fourth and final cup (the Cup of Praise), knowing that this was not an appropriate time for celebration.
Others suggest that cup that Messiah Yeshua was speaking of was the Cup of Praise- that His sacreifice was worhty of their celebration. Either way, the symbolism of blood in the Passover celebration is already very much part of the tradition- it was no stretch or misapplication to suggest that the wine at the table represented the blood of sacrifice which would pay the penalty for all of their sins.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Oct 19, 2006 0:57:28 GMT -8
Shalom chaverim, I think that Nachson is not referring to literal blood drinking. Of course that would be a sin. Yeshua's use of the word "blood" is a "remez" understanding (third level of PaRDeS) of "teaching". In Judaism and Rabbinic teaching, the idea of wine (blood of grapes) and blood refers to teaching. We have at least one example of this in the scriptures regarding the parable of the wine and the wine skins. Of course we know that the  says that the life is in in the blood and not to drink literal blood. This would be relating to unlawfully. And certainly there is life in the blood (remez) of Yeshua as His teachings and His Father's Teachings (they are echad/one) are life producing. He tells us to choose life and His is life giving. His blood, His teachings are life and we must drink His blood (so to speak) to be saved. We learn in Beresheet that there are two trees. The tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Tree of life. If we eat of the Tree Of Good And Evil in an unlawful way, we will certainly reap death. It’s purpose is to judge us…and it certainly did, until this day. It is for our Heavenly Father to give His teachings to us and not for us to take them for our own purposes and understandings...even if it seems pleasant to the eyes. It is this tree (good and evil) that tells us what is good and evil, it is one aspect of the of our Heavenly Father. Just as was written on stone tablets and on other surfaces, yet did not produce life in the individual, so was it with the Tree Of Good And Evil. But, just as these very same commands that were written on stone are taken and transplanted into our hearts…it produces life. than serves in a different function (Tree Of Life). Before it’s purpose was to judge us, but now it is written on our hearts and changes our nature to conform to the Most High, producing life. But, it is only our Heavenly Father that can write His on our hearts. We cannot pluck the fruit of The Tree Of Good And Evil and do with it what is right in our own eyes. It must be the work of His Spirit (Yechezk’el/Ezek. 36:26-27) that accomplishes this. Yeshua is The Tree of Life. He said, “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.” “Yeshua said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will still live, even if he dies.” – Yochanan (John) 11:25 The tree of good and evil was never meant to give life. For those whom try to gain life from this tree will receive death. We must discern it’s fruit by faith to gain access to the Tree Of Life. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word ( ) of Elohim. And, those whom believe on Him will have everlasting life (Yochanan/John 3:16). But, faith without works is dead. And, it must be His works that He has prepared for us to walk in and not those in which we have prepared for ourselves to walk in. To access the Tree Of Life we must keep His commands. We see that this is evident in the following passages... "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my G'd." Rev. 2:7 "Blessed are those who do his mitzvot, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city." - Rev. 22:14 "If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may G'd take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book." - Rev 22:19 You see, one must respect the tree of good and evil and our Heavenly Father's instruction ( ) before one is granted to access Etz Chayim (Tree of Life). Yeshua was the word made flesh, He is the very instruction ( ) of our Heavenly Father, therefore we must drink His blood and allow it to become part of us so that His life may be in us, and our life in Him, and thus our life will be in The Father whom along with Yeshua is the source of all life. Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 19, 2006 5:14:27 GMT -8
Thank you, Reuel. That really made a lot of sense. I think I understand it now.
Shalom,
David
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 20, 2006 4:59:05 GMT -8
Very well put Reuel!
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Post by RhodesianRidgeback on Apr 20, 2008 10:44:06 GMT -8
In Pioneers post:
29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
Is Yeshua making A Nazarite vow here?
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Post by Mark on Apr 26, 2008 5:06:29 GMT -8
It would be difficult to assert that Messiah was proclaiming Himself under a vow, particularly since He knew He would not be able to complete the vow... at least not without coming into contact with death (His own included). I think His statement was more of a declaration concerning the impending events. He wanted to let them know that those things He had been talking about were now unfolding before their eyes.
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Tyler
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by Tyler on Apr 27, 2008 12:11:47 GMT -8
I agree with Mark. I don't think Yeshua is making a vow, especially since the generally accepted minimum term of the Nazirite vow (when the Temple stood) was one month.
This year at our Seder, in referring to the 4 Cups, it was mentioned that Yeshua partook of the first two. The 3rd Cup (the Cup of Redemption) was where He made the statement, "This is My Blood." And the 4th Cup (the Cup of Restoration which points to the Millennium) was the Cup He said He would not drink until the Father's Kingdom.
It's also important to notice that when Yeshua was being murdered he was offered wine/vinegar twice.
The first time was immediately before He was crucified. The soldier offered Him wine mixed with gall/myhrr (something bitter) which was probably intended to pacify the victim and ease the pain. After tasting it, Yeshua absolutely refused to drink.
The second time, on the cross, Yeshua said He was thirsty, and they offered Him vinegar in a sponge on a long stick. And after drinking it, Yeshua died.
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nasah
New Member
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Post by nasah on Aug 10, 2008 6:05:49 GMT -8
Reuel, let me just ask this one question about your post, and i don't intend to derail this thread. I've been thinking much on the tree of knowledge of good and evil lately, and wondered if it did infact represent the , or law. The commandments. That's what i think it is anyhow. Is that what you are saying it is? Shalom, nasah |
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says that the life is in in the blood and not to drink literal blood. This would be relating to 
