The Resurrection the unrighteous will also be raised?

[mystic]

My cousin brought this up the other day asking if I believe in the resurrection and if the unrighteous also be raised? I haven't give it much thought because far as I know Christ said he will raise only the righteous or am I wrong please?

[alon]

I'm going to give you a couple of scriptures to start with, then back off and see what others have to say. I bet they can come up with a whole list, along with explanations!

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:14-15 (ESV) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,  having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

[mosheli]

Revelation has two resurrections & judgments, the first resurrection of the saved before the millenium, and the second resurrection of the lost and the great white throne judgement and second death after the millenium, which matches the verse Alon gace from Acts. Also it says everyone above and in and under the earth will confess and give glory and honour to Yeshua the lamb & God, which must mean they are still in existence. The JWs believe the unsaved will be annihilated, but this doesn't seem to square with bible. "Where the worm does not die"? "Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live. Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:25-29. Which is similar to the Daniel one Alon gave.)

[mystic]

Sorry guys, not understanding. Those 2 scriptures Shown by Dan seems to be saying the opposite? Or is it that yes everyone will be raised when Christ returns but all of the unrighteous will be subject to everlasting contempt?

For clarification guys, the cuz believes that the both the just and unjust will go to heaven. I will ask him again which scripture he is referring to and get back to you guys on it.

What had sparked all of this is, his mother is Hindu. He's thinking he will see her in the afterlife. He asked me if I agree with him and I had told him no, since she is Hindu I can't see that God will accept any Hindu into his kingdom since they believe in another God, am I wrong here please?

[alon]

Nov 14, 2021 4:21:21 GMT -8 mystic said:

Sorry guys, not understanding. Those 2 scriptures Shown by Dan seems to be saying the opposite? Or is it that yes everyone will be raised when Christ returns but all of the unrighteous will be subject to everlasting contempt?

For clarification guys, the cuz believes that the both the just and unjust will go to heaven. I will ask him again which scripture he is referring to and get back to you guys on it.

What had sparked all of this is, his mother is Hindu. He's thinking he will see her in the afterlife. He asked me if I agree with him and I had told him no, since she is Hindu I can't see that God will accept any Hindu into his kingdom since they believe in another God, am I wrong here please?

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

shame- H2781 חֶרְפָּה cherpâh- disgrace, rebuke, reproach, shame.
contempt- H1860 דֵּרָאוֹן דְּרָאוֹן  derâ'ôn dêrâ'ôn  From an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion: - abhorring, contempt.

Our abhorrence will stem from their unrighteous practices. But this does not just mean they will be shunned "in heaven." You are absolutely right to tell your cousin his mom will not be there:

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

unrighteous- G94 ἄδικος adikos- unjust; by extension wicked; by implication treacherous; specifically heathen: - unjust, unrighteous.
idolaters- G1496 εἰδωλολάτρης  eidōlolatrēs-  an image (servant or) worshipper (literally or figuratively): - idolater.

Here is a very short list of the main gods in Hinduism, all of which have idols to be worshiped:

The Hindu trinity-  Brahma (creator), Vishnu (preserver), and Shiva (destroyer and reincarnator). Their feminine counterparts- Saraswat (wife of Brahma), Lakshmi (wife of Vishnu), and Parvati (wife of Shiva). 
Vednatha
Chaturmukha
Prajapati
Hiranyagarbha
Vedagarbha
Kaushal
Vishnu
Adi Narayana
Narayana
Thirumal
Perumal
Jagannatha
Hayagriva
Achyuta
Madhava
Guruvayurappan
Vaikuntha Chaturmurti
Vaikuntha Kamalaja
Mohini
Lakshmi Narayan
Krishna
Vishvarupa
Ranganatha
Dashavatara, the 10 incarnations of Vishnu
Madhusudana
Padmanabha
Ananta Shayana
Hari
Upulvan, another name for Vishnu In Sri Lanka
Purushottama
Vasudeva
Govinda
Caturvyūha
Ardhanarishvara
Nataraja
Pashupati
Rudra
Dakshinamurthy
Ravananugraha
Vaidheeswara
Virupaksha
Lingodbhava
Bhikshatana
Sri Manjunatha
Bholenath
Maheshwara
Devi (goddess)

That, since idolatry is mentioned repeatedly in scripture as condemning one to the second death does not sound like there will be Hindus in the Olam Ha'ba. When asked about such things in person, I try to be gentle but firm: if they died practicing idolatry then they will be raised for the White Throne Judgement spoken of by mosheli and condemned to Hell. We can argue the nature of Hell in another thread, but the one sure thing is idolaters will not be in "heaven." Heaven is another topic as well. But call it what you will, a practicing Hindu will NOT see the Kingdom of God.

What do the rest of you think?


I want to take this time to reiterate: I  am not a rabbi or even a biblical scholar. My "authority" here begins and ends with the rules, and even in that I will defer to gentle correction by another member rather than a heavy hand on the control panel. But I can be wrong, in part or in whole. I can also not get my point across like I think I am, and the only way I learn is if you all call me on it when you think I'm wrong. You'll have to prove your case (I'm stubborn),  but if convinced I have no problem saying thanks and adding to my "I Found Out  Was Wrong" thread. Unless my post is blue, which R Reuel chose for my "official" tone, then I am just another member here,  seeking the truth.

Dan  

edit: mystic, sadly I have to say I do not think I am wrong here. But this is an important and all too common question, so go ahead and ask, or even challenge my conclusions. I'd love to see others perspective on this too and some good discussion. But both of the scriptures I initially gave say there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous. They will be judged and condemned based on their standing with Yeshua when they died. Up to that point I believe they can repent and ask forgiveness and it will be granted. But failing that I again have to agree with you that they will not be "in heaven." They will however be resurrected and face judgement.

[jimmie]

I believe what is hinted at here is the doctrine of "universal salvation". A few verses used to support this notion:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Ps 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Ps 65:2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
Ps 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
Ps 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Ps 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. 10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee. 14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
Is 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom: 518 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
II Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[alon]

Nov 15, 2021 7:14:20 GMT -8 jimmie said:

I believe what is hinted at here is the doctrine of "universal salvation". 

That was good! We can parse some of those out later, but I want to make sure I understand you first. You were just  giving examples, not espousing this doctrine, right?

It's very similar to a doctrine that many Jewish Messianics hold, that all their forefathers and relatives will be saved. Kind of a reaction to church doctrine that almost no Jews will be saved. One passage they base the idea on:

Romans 11:26-27 (EV) And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

But even in English we have to be careful with the word "all." It doesn't always mean "all." Rav Shaul began that part of his darash speaking of the remnant in Elijah's time, and he continues in that idea throughout. We have only to read in context to see he means "all who accept Yeshua."

Romans 11:7a (ESV) What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

So let's discuss some of those scriptures you gave. Like I said, this is a very important and all too common topic.  

[jimmie]

Not espousing this doctrine. Merely pointing out scriptures commonly used by those on this exstream of the salvations issue.

[mystic]

Nov 14, 2021 11:26:11 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan  

edit: mystic, sadly I have to say I do not think I am wrong here. But this is an important and all too common question, so go ahead and ask, or even challenge my conclusions. I'd love to see others perspective on this too and some good discussion. But both of the scriptures I initially gave say there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous. They will be judged and condemned based on their standing with Yeshua when they died. Up to that point I believe they can repent and ask forgiveness and it will be granted. But failing that I again have to agree with you that they will not be "in heaven." They will however be resurrected and face judgement.

Ken had mentioned that in bold above, that Hindus and everyone else will be given a second chance then and if they should refuse then they will not live in God's kingdom.

I have an issue with this because if we all know that we will be given a second chance in life after death then why bother to make the extreme sacrifices to live sin free in this life?

Also, I thought the idea is that when Christ comes he will raise the dead and only his people will be taken up into the air while the earth is being wiped out [cleansed] then afterwards his people will live here on earth in peace for a thousand years?

[alon]

Nov 16, 2021 5:07:18 GMT -8 mystic said:

Nov 14, 2021 11:26:11 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan  

edit: mystic, sadly I have to say I do not think I am wrong here. But this is an important and all too common question, so go ahead and ask, or even challenge my conclusions. I'd love to see others perspective on this too and some good discussion. But both of the scriptures I initially gave say there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous. They will be judged and condemned based on their standing with Yeshua when they died. Up to that point I believe they can repent and ask forgiveness and it will be granted. But failing that I again have to agree with you that they will not be "in heaven." They will however be resurrected and face judgement.

Ken had mentioned that in bold above, that Hindus and everyone else will be given a second chance then and if they should refuse then they will not live in God's kingdom.

I have an issue with this because if we all know that we will be given a second chance in life after death then why bother to make the extreme sacrifices to live sin free in this life?

Also, I thought the idea is that when Christ comes he will raise the dead and only his people will be taken up into the air while the earth is being wiped out [cleansed] then afterwards his people will live here on earth in peace for a thousand years?

Look at the part I underlined and italicized. I did not mean to imply there is a "second chance." "Up to that point"means up to death or the Second Coming. If we die in our sins, we are condemned. And the one unforgivable sin is to die not believing Yeshua is Ha'Moshiach, eternal God: 

John 8:24 (ESV) "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Romans 6:23 (ESV) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This speaks of the second death, as opposed to the free gift of eternal life. Both the just and the unjust will be raised and judged. Those who believe will be rewarded with eternal life; those who do not will be condemned to the second death in the lake of Fire.    

Acts 3:19 (ESV) Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

However with this new belief and acceptance must come repentance. This means turning away from idolatry, worshiping only God, and walking with Him as Adam did in the garden. Holding on to any part of Hinduism or especially Hindu gods would mean one is not "saved," but in a state of unbelief and sin, and therefore subject to the White Throne Judgement where they will be condemned.   

  

[mystic]

I ran this by the cuz and this was his response:

Everyone who is resurrected will be given a second chance. Read John 5:25 , 28,29. We can discuss.

Looking at those scriptures Dan, I can see why he's saying that. However my thinking in 25 is "they that hear shall live" is not referring to the dead but rather to the living, meaning he is addressing the living who hears?

[alon]

Nov 25, 2021 3:27:33 GMT -8 mystic said:

I ran this by the cuz and this was his response:

Everyone who is resurrected will be given a second chance. Read John 5:25 , 28,29. We can discuss.

Looking at those scriptures Dan, I can see why he's saying that. However my thinking in 25 is "they that hear shall live" is not referring to the dead but rather to the living, meaning he is addressing the living who hears?

John 5:25-29 (ESV) “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Look at the entire passage. What doe sit say:
* the Son is given life
* the dead will hear  His  voice and  live
* the Son has authority to execute judgment
* all the dead will hear His voice
* all the dead will  come out
  * "those who have done good to the resurrection of life"
  * "and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment"

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Both are saying we die, and are resurrected to be judged; NOT to get a "second chance." People can delude themselves, but the plain text meaning here is clear. There is NO mention of a "second chance, "only a judgement when we  are resurrected. If your cousin is counting on this, he is doomed. If he is teaching others this, then he will be judged for sending them to Hell without a hope as well. God is not bound by what we think He should do.He plainly tells us what He will do, and it is up to us to act accordingly.

Think about it for a  moment. If we get this second chance while standing before the Throne of Almighty God, who wouldn't repent? Your golden condo could be right next to Adolf Hitler! Constantine thought he could outsmart God, not becoming "Christian"  until on his deathbed. He  could live life as he wanted and worship Sol Invictus, the Unconquerable Sun up until just before he died. Then he could become "Christian," die and "go to heaven." I doubt  that went well for him. What your cousin is doing is essentially the same thing. He has it all figured out there will be a second chance after death. Whether this is for him or for someone he cares about, it is a "back door" to "heaven." But  there is only one way:

 Acts 4:10,12 (KJV) Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. ... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

This is the same Yeshua Ha'Moshiach who said He will raise men to judgement. And judgement does not imply a  "second chance," but rather a review of your life and dispensation of justice.  

 

[mosheli]

I was reading Revelation and I noticed that Revelation seems to imply that only those who died in the tribulation will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection? Does that mean all who are saved before then are not raised until the 2nd resurrection after the millenium?

20:4 I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given
to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't
receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand.
They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.
20:5 The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over these, the second death has no power, but they will
be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him
one thousand years.

20:11 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away.
There was found no place for them.
20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before
the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened,
which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things
which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it.
Death and Hades{or, Hell} gave up the dead who were in them.
They were judged, each one according to his works.
20:14 Death and Hades{or, Hell} were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was
cast into the lake of fire.

(That seems clear that both saved and unsaved are resurrected, and that not all are saved.)

Though earlier it says that the armies of heaven come with the rider on the white horse (19:14), so I'm not sure if maybe this includes those saved before the tribulation?

[alon]

Nov 25, 2021 15:24:05 GMT -8 mosheli said:

I was reading Revelation and I noticed that Revelation seems to imply that only those who died in the tribulation will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection? Does that mean all who are saved before then are not raised until the 2nd resurrection after the millenium?

...

(That seems clear that both saved and unsaved are resurrected, and that not all are saved.)

Though earlier it says that the armies of heaven come with the rider on the white horse (19:14), so I'm not sure if maybe this includes those saved before the tribulation?

Eschatology has never been my strong suit. I was kind of hoping others would comment on this, as it is a difficult passage. The first thing we have to agree on to discuss this is are we talking about a literal 1000 yr. reign. There are various other views (Amillennialism, Premillennialism, Postmillennialism are the most prominent), however I lean towards a literal 1000 yrs reign of Yeshua. So my answers will be based on that view. But like I said, not my strong suit,  so I tend to look at this in simple terms.   

Revelation 20:4 (NASB)  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Yeshua had earlier told His close talmedim, later to become shaliachim that they would sit on the 12  thrones and judge the 12 tibes:

Matthew 19:28 (NASB) And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And there is another possible hint that all the saints will be there in the millennium:

1 Corinthians 6:2a (NASB) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

So I believe all those who accepted Yeshua in  life will be raised at the first resurrection. The phrase "and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands" could e a metaphor for all who had not chose the rulership of ha'satan in life.  

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This implies that those who are part of the second resurrection will come to grief, but all in the first resurrection are blessed. here are only 2 resurrections,  one for believers and one for non-believers. 

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Read Ezekiel 38 and compare. 

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence [face] earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books [scrolls] were opened; and another book [scroll] was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is what is typically called the "Great White Throne Judgement." I tend to believe as mainstream Christianity does here; that this is the judgement of unbelievers and those who willingly chose ha'satan over Yeshua/God.    

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small." Compare this to:

Romans 2:1 (NASB) For there is no partiality with God.

Also:

Revelation 19:17-18 (NASB) Then I saw an angel [heavenly messenger] standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

No matter who you are or what you've done in life, if you die in your sins you will be judged for them. 

To answer your question:

Revelation 19:14 (NASB) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

Biblically the armies of heaven are typically portrayed as heavenly messengers (angels), however the saints are now "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." So my answer would have  to be speculative, and therefore really just worthless. I don't even have  an opinion on this one. It's one of those "wait and see, and trust God" things. My inclination is that I wouldn't want to be a part of what is about to happen. But if God says ...    

[mystic]

Yeah, ken who is a JW is firm in his beliefs so I left it alone. What bothered me about this service for my older brother couple weeks ago was that he was telling. people that "we will see him again in the next life". My thinking was which scripture does he get that from but then won't make sense asking because JW's as we all know are very firm in their beliefs and their intepretations of scriptures.

Now to further complicate things even more, my mom said we need to keep a 40 days service for my brother. He was baptized during early childhood as Presbyterian, got married in Nazarene faith and the service for him before the cremation was help by a JW, nice huh? I am reaching out to some presbyterians to find out exactly what is done for the 40 days service but my mom is hinting that I will need to take part in it. See what happens when you live in a family of mixed faiths?