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Post by garrett on Feb 19, 2021 11:55:28 GMT -8
Hi All,
Long ago I used to hear the phrase "praying in the spirit." I have no idea what this implies but I think it's still used today. Is it just a made up churchy term? My thinking is...Yes.
Hope everyone is well - garrett
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Post by alon on Feb 19, 2021 17:26:20 GMT -8
Hi All, Long ago I used to hear the phrase "praying in the spirit." I have no idea what this implies but I think it's still used today. Is it just a made up churchy term? My thinking is...Yes. Hope everyone is well - garrett
But the next verses say:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.Then we have:Ephesians 6:18 (ESV) praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Immediately before this we have the famous exhortation to “put on the whole armor of God:”12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, … 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Note the connection of the Spirit and the Word. Also the admonition that ours is a spiritual battle, and the call to stand and resist.Jude 20 (ESV) But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
Reading in context:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
The common theme in all these is a call to persevere by making sure to pray and that your prayers are in line with the will of God. That our spirits are aligned with His Spirit. And that is accomplished by being in the Word. Christianity interprets this in many ways. First to come to mind is always tongues. This is based primarily on Rom 8:28 where the Spirit makes “groanings” for us. But the word there is στεναγμός stenagmos- to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly, groan. Nothing there says anything about “tongues,” known or unknown. Most, not knowing what to make of it simply spiritualize it. JK Gill in commenting on Eph 6 says we should “make use of it in times of darkness, desertion, and temptation: and this, when performed aright, is performed "in the Spirit"; with the heart, soul, and spirit engaged in it.” In that he is correct. But then he had to go and say “in a spiritual way.” He’s actually mostly right in his commentary there. But they just can’t get away from spiritualizing what is difficult to understand.He does talk about perseverance, which is a common theme in the texts above. And he does admonish us to make sure our prayers are aligned with the will of God. Like all Christianity, he couches his thesis in Trinitarian terms, the Spirit in his mind being a separate entity. In his mind the Holy Spirit helps us pray so our prayers will be heard by the Father. As the “church” uses the term it can get confusing. I prefer just to read in context and try to understand what is actually meant by “praying in the spirit.” What is the point (or points) the text is trying to convey. And while I/we (Messianics as a whole) never downplay the part God has in helping align our thoughts through His Word and His guidance and through the act of praying, neither do we simply spiritualize it thus removing ourselves from the equation. The church also says "God helps those who help themselves," and that is absolutely correct!
Dan |
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Post by garrett on Feb 20, 2021 18:51:29 GMT -8
Hi All, Long ago I used to hear the phrase "praying in the spirit." I have no idea what this implies but I think it's still used today. Is it just a made up churchy term? My thinking is...Yes. Hope everyone is well - garrett
But the next verses say:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.Then we have:Ephesians 6:18 (ESV) praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Immediately before this we have the famous exhortation to “put on the whole armor of God:”12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, … 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Note the connection of the Spirit and the Word. Also the admonition that ours is a spiritual battle, and the call to stand and resist.Jude 20 (ESV) But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
Reading in context:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
The common theme in all these is a call to persevere by making sure to pray and that your prayers are in line with the will of God. That our spirits are aligned with His Spirit. And that is accomplished by being in the Word. Christianity interprets this in many ways. First to come to mind is always tongues. This is based primarily on Rom 8:28 where the Spirit makes “groanings” for us. But the word there is στεναγμός stenagmos- to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly, groan. Nothing there says anything about “tongues,” known or unknown. Most, not knowing what to make of it simply spiritualize it. JK Gill in commenting on Eph 6 says we should “make use of it in times of darkness, desertion, and temptation: and this, when performed aright, is performed "in the Spirit"; with the heart, soul, and spirit engaged in it.” In that he is correct. But then he had to go and say “in a spiritual way.” He’s actually mostly right in his commentary there. But they just can’t get away from spiritualizing what is difficult to understand.He does talk about perseverance, which is a common theme in the texts above. And he does admonish us to make sure our prayers are aligned with the will of God. Like all Christianity, he couches his thesis in Trinitarian terms, the Spirit in his mind being a separate entity. In his mind the Holy Spirit helps us pray so our prayers will be heard by the Father. As the “church” uses the term it can get confusing. I prefer just to read in context and try to understand what is actually meant by “praying in the spirit.” What is the point (or points) the text is trying to convey. And while I/we (Messianics as a whole) never downplay the part God has in helping align our thoughts through His Word and His guidance and through the act of praying, neither do we simply spiritualize it thus removing ourselves from the equation. The church also says "God helps those who help themselves," and that is absolutely correct!
Dan It's very ironic, the first examples you gave from Romans, Ephesians and Jude ring true to me. They're good and immediately familiar. But when I hear "praying in the spirit" or any church related phrase, my first instinct is to dismiss it as some cliche evangelical invention! From the scriptures it is recognizable and fully valid. From the mouths of men...not so much. I think I'm permanently burned out with the church exposure that I had long ago and so now their "terms" mean nothing to me, even if they are legitimate to some degree. Therefore, I dismiss it outright! On my way to and from work I often tune in to one or two religious stations and usually end up rolling my eyes saying "good grief, enough already!" then I completely change the station, shaking my head. The passages in Jude, referring to the spiritual battle, ring true. Especially nowadays, when evil is so palpable. Sometimes I feel it hanging in the air, and I'm certainly not looking for it. I practically walk into it. So to hear the often contrived terminology of the religious West while Rome is burning...I turn into a caricature of that grouchy old man! Their words have become dead to me but straight from the Bible, they're good. It's like having ski boots - they're useless unless you lock them onto a ski. Thanks for the clarification on something that's pretty obvious - garrett |
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Post by garrett on Feb 20, 2021 18:57:26 GMT -8
Dan,
Also, as soon as you mentioned davening it made sense right away. From that angle my eyes opened.
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Post by mystic on Mar 1, 2021 4:22:20 GMT -8
Praying in the Spirit especially to the Evangelists mainly mean Praying in tongues. They make it seem like you need to do this on order to reach some higher spiritual level. This is the main Pastor whom they get their inspiration from to my understanding:
(redacted)
The praying in tongues starts at the 4.15 mark.
Moderator note: sorry, but too much false teaching in that, so even though it was used as a negative example I had to redact the link.
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Post by alon on Mar 1, 2021 7:34:39 GMT -8
My understanding is that the modern tongues movement, like so many other evils in this country started (or at least gained popularity) just after the War Between the States. Churches too often abandoned sound doctrine for false doctrines like Dispensationalism and a kind of crazy, spiritual hysteria replaced true worship. Before this tongues was universally seen as what it truly is- intelligible languages. And progressive revelation was not seen as dispensations where God required different things of people. God never changes, nor does what He expects of us. nd He tells us clearly what that is. He does NOT babble and wait for someone else to tell Him what He just said!
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Post by alon on Mar 1, 2021 7:37:48 GMT -8
It's very ironic, the first examples you gave from Romans, Ephesians and Jude ring true to me. They're good and immediately familiar. But when I hear "praying in the spirit" or any church related phrase, my first instinct is to dismiss it as some cliche evangelical invention! From the scriptures it is recognizable and fully valid. From the mouths of men...not so much. I think I'm permanently burned out with the church exposure that I had long ago and so now their "terms" mean nothing to me, even if they are legitimate to some degree. Therefore, I dismiss it outright!
Dan |
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Post by mystic on Mar 2, 2021 5:20:19 GMT -8
Praying in the Spirit especially to the Evangelists mainly mean Praying in tongues. They make it seem like you need to do this on order to reach some higher spiritual level. This is the main Pastor whom they get their inspiration from to my understanding: (redacted)
The praying in tongues starts at the 4.15 mark. Moderator note: sorry, but too much false teaching in that, so even though it was used as a negative example I had to redact the link.Np at all. Was simply showing that this was the Pastor whom they admired and followed regarding speaking in tongues. Christ never [to use your word] babbled or spoke gibberish or words which no one can understand so I won't do it but what do you think the NT meant by "speaking in tongues"? |
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Post by alon on Mar 2, 2021 10:18:57 GMT -8
Rav Shaul spoke in tongues. He was an educated man and well traveled, so likely at the least he spoke Hebrew, Greek, Roman, and maybe e few other languages. Those are "tongues." And those are what is meant when the NT talks about tongues- intelligible languages.
At Pentecost, tongues were spoken:
Acts 2:7-11 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
They heard and understood these men in their own tongue, in their own language. Tongues meant languages in the NT. In the two examples I gave, one is a gift of tongues by Rav Shaul who was able to learn other languages. Some people just have a gift for doing that. The second is a supernatural ocurance where one either speaks to another in a language he does not actually know, or is understood by someone who doesn't speak his language. That is a gift given in the moment to edify someone else and as a witness that you are from God. But in these cases, it is a language understood by the recipient.
1 Cor 14:27-28 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.
This again means known language.You have to know in advance someone is there who can interpret. If all you are going to do is babble, you can assume someone might take advantage, stand up and tell everyone what he wants them to hear as if from God; but you can't know for sure. As Gentiles were being added to congregations of believers across the diaspora, it was inevitable that interpreters would be needed. So Rav Shaul was saying here to let a few, "two, or at most three" who speak a different language speak, then let the interpreter tell what they said to those who don't speak their "tongue." Paul was speaking about keeping order in the service. Someone standing up, interrupting service by babbling unintelligibly is the opposite of order.
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Post by mystic on Mar 3, 2021 4:26:55 GMT -8
GREAT answer and post, thanks!
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Post by mystic on Mar 19, 2021 4:50:35 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Mar 19, 2021 11:52:02 GMT -8
They don't have a "main source." Refute one, they'll misinterpret another and throw it at you. So again I say, read all in context! The chapter ends:1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (ESV) So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.G1100 (Strong) γλῶσσα glōssa Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.R Shaul was dealing with an assembly that was getting out of control, speaking in different languages. Corinth was a major seafaring, trading, and industrial center located on the Isthmus of Corinth in Greek Peloponnesia. There would have been a multitude of languages spoken there. But everyone just speaking in their own "tongue" or even in languages they'd learned but not mastered trying to get his point across would have been chaos. Only God would have known what was being said!"Desire to prophesy." The main job of a prophet of God was not to tell the future. It was to confront both Kings (leaders) and the masses; opposing sin and evil, exposing false doctrine and theologies, and imposing order. Paul was telling them not to shut anyone out because they couldn't speak well in the native tongue. "Desire to prophesy," to bring order to the chaos. Restoring order to the assembly would in fact allow everyone their say in an environment where either someone could translate or everyone could listen attentively and discern what he was trying to say. Also it would allow translators to let everyone know what was being said by others, so everyone would be edified. But everyone trying to be heard over the din with several languages being spoken must have seemed like a modern Pentecostal "tongues" service where everyone is loudly babbling incoherently; venting their emotions and calling it "talking to God."
God cares about our emotions, and wants us to share them with Him. And there may be times when we are just too emotional to put our thoughts together and speak plainly. In those times He does understand, and will help us sort things out. But that can only happen if we attempt to talk with Him. Artificially working ourselves up into an emotional state and babbling incoherently is not sharing our emotions, it is trying to impose them on God. It makes God the "Feel Good Genie," just another pagan deity. This is what we acting as minor "prophets" in the sense of taking a stand for what is right must oppose.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on May 15, 2021 4:52:24 GMT -8
I was just reading Corinthians 14:2 again. So the Pastors speak in tongues because Paul said to to do so. Makes one wonder who gave Paul the authority to do this?
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Post by alon on May 15, 2021 17:29:14 GMT -8
I was just reading Corinthians 14:2 again. So the Pastors speak in tongues because Paul said to to do so. Makes one wonder who gave Paul the authority to do this?
I don't see any command to speak in tongues there. He is exhorting them to seek to prophecy instead. He wasn't saying "don't do it" either, but we must understand what the gift of tongues was. It was the ability given by the Ruach to speak in an intelligible language which one had no previous training or experience in. It was a supernatural gift of the Ruach, done for a sign as the gospel was going out. Now anyone can babble. That wouldn't be much of a sign. But if you do speak in tongues and no one there understands you, who have you helped? Seek to prophesy instead.
As to Paul's authority, he was a shaliach, and apostle. Along with that office would have come the authority to make halacha, and this is mostly what Corinthians is about. He was making halacha which restored order to their assemblies. |
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Post by mystic on May 16, 2021 3:33:59 GMT -8
I think I can see why they take the meaning from that verse to mean as you say "babble".
Just a few minutes ago I heard David Jeremiah quoting Corinthians saying "we will not be judged for our sins as Christ has already paid for our sins" when Christ himself said whoever does not obey him the wrath of God remains on him. Bobby Womack too said "all of our sins are already paid for, past, present and future". I don't know if I can agree on all of Paul's teachings which the Pastors are adopting which is why I focus only on the words and teachings of Christ [and John] when it comes to the NT. Or is that they grossly misinterpret Paul's words?
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