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Post by mystic on Nov 1, 2020 4:12:40 GMT -8
Regarding the tattoos yeah I always knew that but what about the Mark of Cain, wasn't that a physical make god had put on Cain?
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Post by alon on Nov 1, 2020 13:34:13 GMT -8
What about the Mark of Cain, wasn't that a physical mark God had put on Cain? Scripture is not clear on a lot of this story. I knew the mark itself was not specified, but when I went to read the context of the entire episode I found a lot that was not clear. So I looked and read what others had to say. It was so interesting a topic I decided to put this in its own thread instead of potentially hijacking or distracting from the thread on commandments:Genesis 4:8-16 (KJV)8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength [כּוֹחַ kôach: produce, fruits, substance, wealth]; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.fugitive- H5128 נוּעַ nûa‛; to waver, continually, fugitive, make to [go] up and down, be gone away, reel, remove, scatter, to and fro, be vagabond, wag, wander (up and down). vagabond- H5110 נוּד nûd; to nod, waver; to wander, flee, disappear; to console, deplore, or taunt: bemoan, flee, get, mourn, make to move, remove, be sorry, vagabond, wandering.13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.mark- H226 אוֹת ‘ôth; a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, sign, token; a sign, omen, warning, remembrance, motion, gesture, agreement, miracle, wonder, or, most commonly, a letter.16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.dwelt- H3427 יָשַׁב yâshab; properly to sit down (specifically as judge, in ambush, in quiet); by implication to dwell, to remain; causatively to settle, to marry: abide, continue, endure, establish, habitation, haunt, inhabit, lurking, take, tarry. Nod- H5113 נוֹד nôd; vagrancy, wander, exile, to nod, waver; figuratively to wander, flee, disappear; also (from shaking the head in sympathy), to console, deplore, or (from tossing the head in scorn) taunt: - bemoan, flee, get, mourn, make to move, take pity, remove, shake, skip for joy, be sorry, vagabond, way, wandering. Here we have both a curse and the mark of Cain. We also see an apparent discrepancy in that he was to be a vagabond and a wanderer (vs.12), yet he “dwelt in the land of Nod.” But when we look we find the land of nod and vagabond to be the same term: “נוֹד nôd.” So the discrepancy turns out to be another case of “lost in translation.”
As to the curse and mark, many say this is just the typical countenance of a killer, which tends to make one be ostracized from polite society. It makes people nervous. But of course, others disagree. What we do know from scripture:
The curse was twofold: the soil would not yield its produce for Cain, so he could not settle as a farmer; and he was driven from the face of God, and therefore likely from men as well, as he was recognized as a killer and others would want to kill him.
The mark itself was not something He could remove, and all who saw it would recognize it for what it meant. It would have struck fear in those who saw it. In Torah, the same word א֔וֹת ’ōṯ is used for the stars as signs or omens (Gen 1:14); the rainbow, a sign of God's promise to never again destroy the earth with a flood (Gen 9:12), circumcision as a token of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 17:11), and Moses miracles before Pharaoh (Ex 4,8,10).
Some interpretations view this as a physical mark, whereas other interpretations see the "mark" as a sign, and not as a physical mark on Cain himself. The mark of Cain is God's promise of divine protection from others killing him. It is a safe assumption the mark was visible. The Septuagint translates “mark” as “sign,” or a sign to others not to commit murder themselves.
Some Jewish interpretations can get pretty wild. Abba Arika said God gave Cain a dog, making him an example to murderers. Abba Issi said God made Cain grow a horn. R. Hanin said God made Cain an example to penitents (Gen. Rab. 22:12). Rashi said the mark was one of the Hebrew letters of the Covenant Name: "He engraved a letter of His [God's] Name onto his [Cain's] forehead.” In Kabbalah and Zohar the mark was just one of the letters of Torah (the Hebrew aleph-beit).
Christian interpretations vary depending on whether they think Cain was given more time to repent, or whether Cain stood eternally condemned; and if so did that condemnation (or at least part of the curse) extend to his descendants.
Syriac Christianity is a form of Eastern Christianity expressed in the Syriac language. Alongside Latin and Greek this was one of the three most important Christian languages in the early centuries of the Common Era. They believed "the Lord was wroth with Cain … He beat Cain's face with hail, which blackened like coal, and thus he remained with a black face.” Note only his face was blackened, so there was no racial implications in their theology. Of course, this would change over time.
14th cen Irish Franciscan friar Symon Semeonis described the Romani as "descendants of Cain.” And later Protestant denominations, especially in the US began teaching the mark of Cain was dark skin. Even into the 1960’s some denominations would not ordain blacks into the ministry. I was raised Southern Baptist, and can tell you I never heard it preached that the mark was black skin or that black people were any less human. However in 1965 the Southern Baptist Convention did apologize for its racial past, so there must be some truth to this.
Some Catholic dioceses would not ordain blacks to oversee, administer the sacraments to, or accept confessions from white parishioners; though this was never approved by the church as a whole or any Pope. Mormons still believe black skin to be Cain’s mark. In Spencer W. Kimball's The Miracle of Forgiveness, apostle David W. Patten said he encountered a black man in Paris, Tennessee, who said that he was Cain. It said Cain earnestly sought death, but it was denied. His mission was to destroy the souls of men. From there Mormon theology gets a bit convoluted, so we’ll move on.
Cyprian, bishop of Carthage (210-258 A.D.), said the mark represented the sacrifice of Christ, and all who were found in it at death would be saved. It harkened back to the lamb’s blood marking the doorposts in Egypt so the messenger of death would “pass over” their houses.
In Ezekiel 9 God sent a heavenly messenger to mark the foreheads of the faithful in Jerusalem with the letter "tau," the last letter in the Hebrew aleph-beit which was shaped like a cross, or backwards “t.” Then God sent six other messengers to kill everyone that did not have the mark.
In Revelation the mark of the beast is the sign of the Antichrist. It restricts who can buy or sell. Recent theories range from its being bar codes to embeded microchips.
The most poignant marks in Scripture were those made on Yeshua at His execution. After the resurrection, when He received his glorified body, all His injuries from His scourging and death were healed except for those on hands, feet, and side. The point is we should focus on the seriousness of Cain’s sin and God’s mercy in allowing him to live. The mark of Cain was placed on a sinner by God. The marks on Yeshua were put on God by sinners. The mark of Cain protected a sinner from the wrath of men. The marks on Yeshua protect sinners from the wrath of God.
Cain’s mark warns us that God will punish sin. The marks of the execution tree bear witness that through our Moshiach Yeshua, God forgives sin. He restores us to a right relationship with Himself.
There is a LOT written on the "mark of Cain." This is just some of the most relevant I found.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Nov 2, 2020 4:03:40 GMT -8
That's certainly a lot of info on this, thanks. It was also interesting to read that at one time black people would not be ordained. Well, I think since God has the authority to do whatever HE wants and we don't then yes we need to obey the scripture.
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