Which commandments could Jesus be referring to Matthew 5:17?

[mystic]

Jesus said to his disciples:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter
will pass from the law,
until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do so
will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.
But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments
will be called greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.”

So guys, for those who think the law of God's commandment was nailed to the cross, which possible commandments would Christ be referring to here please? I am being told by one Christian:

Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews. So he was telling them that he and they should respect their Jewish religious laws and traditions. He was not telling US, TODAY, that we should follow Jewish laws and traditions because Jews both then and today have never believed that non-Jews need to become Jewish to be accepted by, or to find their rightful place before God.

So the answer is that modern day Christians are not beholding to ancient or modern Jewish religious dictum.

[alon]

Jun 1, 2020 5:34:16 GMT -8 mystic said:

Jesus said to his disciples:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter
will pass from the law,
until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do so
will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.
But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments
will be called greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.”

So guys, for those who think the law of God's commandment was nailed to the cross, which possible commandments would Christ be referring to here please? I am being told by one Christian:

When Yeshua said “not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law,” He meant that no part of Torah would change. So no part of Torah was done away with. And “the law” was not nailed to the tree. It was common for Rome to nail the charges against the unfortunate person above his head. It was the charges against us that was nailed to the tree, not the law itself.

Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews. So he was telling them that he and they should respect their Jewish religious laws and traditions. He was not telling US, TODAY, that we should follow Jewish laws and traditions because Jews both then and today have never believed that non-Jews need to become Jewish to be accepted by, or to find their rightful place before God.

So the answer is that modern day Christians are not beholding to ancient or modern Jewish religious dictum.

So let me get this straight. Your friend is arguing scripture does not apply to us today? Oh, I know he means only that pesky Torah doesn’t apply, but that is not the argument he made. He cannot have it both ways. He is, in fact “A double minded man, unstable in all his ways.” (James 4:8) For example, he shows he is completely ignorant of how Jews of the 1st cen and earlier saw salvation. And in his monumental ignorance he makes some assumptions based on no more than what he wants to be true.

In all the cultures of the time, when you decided to serve another god, it was seen as an act of betrayal and treason. You left your old life, your people, and your family. It was like going into witness protection today; all ties were severed. To be saved you joined with the Hebrews, took on their customs, and worshiped their God alone. Exactly the opposite of what he assumes.

Ruth’s reply to Naomi was the clearest example of this, “For wherever you go, I will go, and wherever you live, I will live; your people will be my people, and your God will be my God." (Ruth 1:16b)

Jews today believe Gentiles who worship the God of Israel have a place in the Olam Haba (world to come), so they are not incentivized to evangelize as Christians, who believe you accept Yeshua or are damned to eternal torment. In fact, Jews today are more concerned with keeping all things Jewish to the Jews. Gentiles not welcome. This is all the result of the Rabbinical Judaism from the 3rd cen on.

But what the Jews want is no more relevant than what the Christians want. What matters is what God wants: 

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

[mystic]

Great info Dan, waiting to see if the guy might have any possible rebuttal.

[alon]

Jun 2, 2020 3:59:26 GMT -8 mystic said:

Great info Dan, waiting to see if the guy might have any possible rebuttal.

His reply will be mostly Christian dogma based on verses pulled out of context. But a part of it will almost certainly be that this is not how salvation works in the "New Testament." nd he will quote from his favorite "Plan of Salvation."

I am going to argue that not only is salvation the same today as it always was, But his own PoS will prove it!

WHat are the main elements of any good PoS?

admit you are a sinner
ask forgiveness and turn from sin, to a holy God (repentance)
accept Jesus as your personal savior
ask Him to come into your life
willing to obey, trusting Him as Lord of your life
ask for guidance of His Holy Spirit that you may be set apart to Him
follow Him in baptism

So let's look at these one at a time:

admit you are a sinner- to change allegiance to another god is to admit that god is right; more powerful, and has attributes better than your current god 
ask forgiveness and turn from sin, to a holy God (repentance)- si is defined in God's Torah, and to follow His Torah has always meant turning from sin to Him
accept Jesus as your personal savior- Jesus is God, therefore to accept Him is to accept His Torah; His law, or instructions
ask Him to come into your life- every aspect of the lives of those who follow the God of Israel has always been defined by His Torah 
willing to obey, trusting Him as Lord of your life- which follows right in line with all I just said
ask for guidance of His Holy Spirit that you may be set apart to Him- the Holy Spirit has always been active in Israel, and even before, going all the way back to creation
follow Him in baptism- Jews did tevilah, ritual full body immersion in water from the giving of Torah on

When Ruth told Naomi her people (the ones who worshiped the God of Israel) would be hers she was accepting her God, agreeing to worship Him only. Otherwise she wouldn't have been accepted by Naomi's people, the Jews. This she affirmed by saying "Your God will be my God." In leaving her gods she was rejecting them, turning to a new God. She was accepting the tenets of Judaism, including that God would send a Messiah. Her faith was such that Messiah would be of her own lineage! And as the story unfolded, we see her accepting the counsel of Naomi, a Godly woman. So she was obedient. Through such people the Holy Spirit has always worked. It was so common it was not recorded, but she would have underwent tevilah many times; for sure just before her wedding to Boaz. Point by point she did just what the New Testament tells us about salvation.

To follow Jesus is to follow the God of Israel. He was and is the Jewish Messiah, and all scripture points either forward to Him (Old Testament) or back to Him (New Testament). To separate Jesus from the Old Testament is to gut the New, as it was there we were introduced to Him and told what He'd be like, what He would do.

Incidentally, nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments is salvation enumerated as in a PoS. It is based on principles and relationship, not on a to-do list.

Dan C  

[mystic]

So far not a peep from that person in response to what you had written.

Regarding baptism, I am seeing "online" baptism. Is that in keeping with scripture that people can be baptized that way?

[alon]

Jun 5, 2020 3:24:52 GMT -8 mystic said:

So far not a peep from that person in response to what you had written. Well, if you sent him a copy of my response as-is he probably got offended. I basically said he was "monumentally ignorant." He's attended years of teachings, read the Christian literature, maybe even has some Christian commentaries to reference. He thinks himself knowledgable. Also many equate ignorance with idiocy. They are not the same, as we know. Messianics pretty much admit we are ignorant of the truth, but know it is not a terminal condition. And the more we study, the less ignorant we are. But it is a matter of degrees, as we never learn it all. It's just part of the human condition.   
Regarding baptism, I am seeing "online" baptism. Is that in keeping with scripture that people can be baptized that way? My gut response is no. Tevilah is a private thing between you and HaShem. It is traditionally done with a reader standing outside the mikvah, but can be done by oneself. But if you use a reader it should be a person, not an electronic image. I fear we are fast approaching idolatry with our techno-gadgets. Furthermore, if he is baptizing inline, he is probably asking you to join his church. Then tithe, which is money leaving the community and enriching one man. So I won't say absolutely no, but I wouldn't do it, and certainly do not encourage the practice.

[mystic]

Jun 5, 2020 12:37:00 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 5, 2020 3:24:52 GMT -8 mystic said:

So far not a peep from that person in response to what you had written. Well, if you sent him a copy of my response as-is he probably got offended. 


Regarding baptism, I am seeing "online" baptism. Is that in keeping with scripture that people can be baptized that way? My gut response is no. Tevilah is a private thing between you and HaShem. It is traditionally done with a reader standing outside the mikvah, but can be done by oneself. But if you use a reader it should be a person, not an electronic image. I fear we are fast approaching idolatry with our techno-gadgets. Furthermore, if he is baptizing inline, he is probably asking you to join his church. Then tithe, which is money leaving the community and enriching one man. So I won't say absolutely no, but I wouldn't do it, and certainly do not encourage the practice.

My experience when debating with the average Christian has always been when you show them the truth about Scripture they simply don't respond. Like when asking them to show any scripture which shows we are not to obey's Gods commands or keep the Sabbath, what can they respond with?

I am on the fence with the online issue because if one can be ordained or married remotely or a child's circumcision can be done remotely then why can't one be baptized remotely too? Question for me regarding baptism is if scripture shows one can baptize one's self?

[alon]

Jun 6, 2020 5:30:21 GMT -8 mystic said:

Jun 5, 2020 12:37:00 GMT -8 alon said:

I am on the fence with the online issue because if one can be ordained or married remotely or a child's circumcision can be done remotely then why can't one be baptized remotely too? Question for me regarding baptism is if scripture shows one can baptize one's self?

The problem is the Christians lack of understanding of what baptism really is. And that is because they do not read Torah.

Baptism comes from the Jewish practice of tevilah, which is a ritual full body immersion in the living waters of a mikvah. Several reasons are enumerated in Torah, with many more being added by either custom or the Oral Tradition. However all they read is the NT account of Phillip and the Ethopian official in Acts 8:

Acts 8:36-38 (KJV) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Based on this they say baptism is one of only 2 ordinances given the church, and they define it as a minister dunking the new believer in a one and done ceremony. The problems here are many. First off, an observant Jew underwent tevilah many, many times in his life, and for a variety of reasons. Joining the sect of the Notsarim would only be one reason for this. Second, no one dunks you as you undergo tevilah, and neither did anyone dunk the Ethopian. It is done by oneself. Someone may read for you from Torah or the Prophets, but it is not required. Typically the reader does not go into the water, however the road they were on is called the "Desert Road," and for good reason. It has clean water on it in exactly one place, and that is where it meets the Mediterranean in exactly and only one spot. There is a rock shelf going far out there which meant the Ethiopian had to go out a ways to find water deep enough to fully immerse. Philip would have had to walk out too in order to be heard. So he was standing in the water as he read, but the official immersed himself.

So if there is no reader, one may "baptize" themselves. Either way, it is a private affair between you and God. It is not a spectator event, as done in churches today, though I find no proscription in scripture for this. However typically it was done in the nude, and at times several went into the water at a time. But it would not have been done in mixed groups.

So technically you could have someone read from an electronic device. However that takes what is supposed to be an intensely personal experience with God and introduces an aura of the impersonal. I just have a problem with that.      

[mystic]

Wait confused, does this mean one does not need an ordained priest to baptize him/her? Also why then did Jesus need John to baptize him?

This is an interesting article on this issue of Baptism I think:

www.gotquestions.org/origin-baptism.html

[alon]

Jun 7, 2020 3:20:52 GMT -8 mystic said:

Wait confused, does this mean one does not need an ordained priest to baptize him/her? Also why then did Jesus need John to baptize him?

This is an interesting article on this issue of Baptism I think:

www.gotquestions.org/origin-baptism.html

I don't have time to read the artical right now, but I'll try and answer your question.

This was an important baptism for Yeshua. His cousin Yochanon was the witness to His coming. Moreover he was a Rabbi with a considerable following and thus was of some standing. This was Yeshua's semicha, and He was about to start His own ministry, calling His own disciples and preaching His besorah, His message. Remember what Yochanon preached?

Mat 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 

And what was it Yeshua preached?

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

A semicha had to be witnessed, and His was by Yochanon, the voice of Adonai, and by His Ruach which descended upon Yeshua.

So yes, Yeshua needed Yochanon to read for Him in this case.

Dan C

[mystic]

Thanks. Since water Baptism by immersion is a biblical method of baptism, I am not understanding how a person can baptize him/herself. What does someone do that's different from simply going into a pool of water and fully immersing him/herself into the water as the Jews did?

Also to note, Christ had sent his disciples to baptize people, that is confusing to because it is suggesting one needs to be baptized by someone else?

[alon]

Jun 8, 2020 3:31:04 GMT -8 mystic said:

Thanks. Since water Baptism by immersion is a biblical method of baptism, I am not understanding how a person can baptize him/herself. What does someone do that's different from simply going into a pool of water and fully immersing him/herself into the water as the Jews did?

Also to note, Christ had sent his disciples to baptize people, that is confusing to because it is suggesting one needs to be baptized by someone else?

The mechanics are simple- walk into the mikvah, squat so that you are completely immersed (make sure hair is immersed as well), get up and walk back out. It is customary to immerse 3 times to make sure everything is under. You always would "baptize" yourself. The baptism you are used to from church is all wrong. Go up a few posts where I explain how it is they get this wrong (Phillip and the Ethiopian official).

When Yeshua sent His shaliachim/apostles (not His disciples) out to spread the good news, He told them to make disciples of all nations, which meant make disciples from those of the nations that would accept Him. Obviously He did not mean make the entire nation disciples. It is a turn of phrase. Likewise when He said to "baptize" them He was not saying to physically dip them. They were to baptize those who believed into His name, meaning they would, with Yeshua share in the victory over sin and death. The shaliachim were to teach them about tevilah, which they would then do themselves.

As an aside, the part about the Trinity was a later addition to the text. Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea Maritima about 314 CE and widely acknowledged as the "Father of Church History" quotes Matthew 28:19:

“With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

"In My Name," not in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit. However if you know your church history you'll recall the 1st Council of Nicea was in 325 CE. One of the main topics to be decided was the nature of God. Very few of the bishops present wanted it, however Constantine decreed the godhead to be "3 Persons." This addition to the text, apparently just shortly after Eusebius seems to be an attempt to shore up the Trinitarian view.

Whenever we read the New Testament, we must keep in mind there are well over 2500 source documents for that small part of scripture, and many of them disagree. The Greek translators from the original Hebrew letters took many liberties, and made many mistakes. However this should not destroy your faith. As it says:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

The only scripture they had when this was written was the TNK, the Old Testament. So if you know the OT, let that interpret the NT and the truth becomes more clear. 

Dan C

[Questor]

Jun 2, 2020 15:55:26 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 2, 2020 3:59:26 GMT -8 mystic said:

Dan C  

SOOO glad of that.  I can't even get to my task list in one day, much less a list of what to do to be Righteous.  I'm not, Yeshua, and I follow in his footsteps...every Jewish one as fast as I can learn them, absorb them, anda pply them.  Fortunately, the Ruach is heavily involved, just like in the days I was keeping Kosher and Shabbat, and did not know I was a Jew, nor had found this forum.

[alon]

Jun 7, 2020 3:20:52 GMT -8 mystic said:

Wait confused, does this mean one does not need an ordained priest to baptize him/her? Also why then did Jesus need John to baptize him?

This is an interesting article on this issue of Baptism I think:

www.gotquestions.org/origin-baptism.html

The artical, though from a Christian perspective was pretty good. Torah does specify many more reasons for common people to undergo tevilah than just those for the Levites mentioned in the artical. Ref Lev 14 & 15 for some. 

Dan C

[alon]

Jun 10, 2020 12:35:53 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jun 2, 2020 15:55:26 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan C  

SOOO glad of that.  I can't even get to my task list in one day, much less a list of what to do to be Righteous.  I'm not, Yeshua, and I follow in his footsteps...every Jewish one as fast as I can learn them, absorb them, anda pply them.  Fortunately, the Ruach is heavily involved, just like in the days I was keeping Kosher and Shabbat, and did not know I was a Jew, nor had found this forum.

Glad you found us again!

Dan C