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Post by mystic on Apr 6, 2020 4:21:08 GMT -8
I am not understanding this part. If Christ will take his chosen ones both the living and the dead up to heaven with him. When he returns to the earth for the Millennium will those chosen ones he had taken remain in heaven?
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Post by alon on Apr 6, 2020 13:25:57 GMT -8
I am not understanding this part. If Christ will take his chosen ones both the living and the dead up to heaven with him. When he returns to the earth for the Millennium will those chosen ones he had taken remain in heaven?
Past that, I've never been that well versed in eschatology. If you are looking seriously into this, I'd try other Messianic sources. Stay clear of Christian and Jewish sources though. They will only confuse and confound you.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Apr 8, 2020 3:49:27 GMT -8
Yeah I am having trouble with Revelations and the Rapture. So MJ's do not believe when we die some will be chosen to live in a heaven?
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Post by alon on Apr 8, 2020 5:03:37 GMT -8
Yeah I am having trouble with Revelations and the Rapture. So MJ's do not believe when we die some will be chosen to live in a heaven?
I’m not really convinced of heaven as Christianity sees it, or our place there. Christians rely on many bible verses for their “proof” that heaven exists and that is where we’ll be until the end of the age. Some even believe forever. I find most of their proofs spurious at best. Most clearly have nothing to do with “heaven” as our dwelling place, especially when read (my favoritest thing) in context. But here are some of their better arguments for heaven:Philippians 3:20 (ESV) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Could mean litterally in heaven; also could mean we are citizens of Yeshua’s domain. As He is God, and God is spirit, He does reside in heaven. We, on the other hand were created to serve Him in His other holding, earth, or the physical realm.Matthew 6:20 (ESV) but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
I take this to mean store treasures with the Almighty.Matthew 19:14 (ESV) but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
The kingdom of heaven is that of HaShem. So this is saying they are His. But He will one day reclaim earth, and there we will serve Him. Does this say we’ll be in heaven first? Not to me, but to some …2 Timothy 4:18 (ESV) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Again, His heavenly kingdom now could just be where we are remembered, where the Book of Life is kept. Matthew 19:21 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”And again, the records are kept in heaven, and from them will come our earthly reward in the end.Some point to Revelation to say we’ll go to heaven:Revelation 6:9-10 (ESV) When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
But this could mean their cries as metaphor, much like blood crying out from the ground:Genesis 4:10 (ESV) And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground.
Some Messianics say we’ll still go to Paradise:Luke 23:43 (ESV) And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Others that we will sleep until that day:
Daniel 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
There are other verses which say we’ll sleep until that day. You can do a search. And we could argue this incessantly (along with millions of other people across religious lines), but I have chosen to put most of my studiy time elsewhere. In the end, my opinion won’t change what view is true; what will happen. I just place ny trust in HaSHem and await His salvation!
Maybe others have some insights. They are certainly able to give them here.
Dan (confused) C |
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Post by mystic on Apr 8, 2020 7:01:14 GMT -8
thanks, let me do some more research on what you've written, get back to you.
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Post by mystic on Apr 9, 2020 4:10:40 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Apr 9, 2020 4:54:47 GMT -8
No, in fact this is one of the weaker "proofs." It says "My Father’s house has many rooms," but does not say those are in heaven, or if they are that we will occupy them there. Could be they are in the New Jerusalem, and we'll move in when that comes to earth. "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" can easily mean when the Christ reigns on earth. So while this COULD mean "heaven," it does not necessarily mean that. In fact, I can make a better argument against than for heaven using this verse.
When God said to Avraham "look now to heaven and count the stars" He was telling Avraham that his offspring would be like the stars, so many it would be hard to number them. It had nothing to do with heaven as a retreat for retired Christians.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Apr 11, 2020 4:28:19 GMT -8
I've taken some time to try to absorb all of this. Are you saying that you think heaven may not be a place in the sky but heaven could be a place right here on earth? If yes, is that your personal opinion or that of all MJ's?
I ask the first part because I am thinking since God said to Abraham to look to the heavens, that means there is a heaven and also that heaven is in the sky and not on earth?
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Post by alon on Apr 11, 2020 5:29:06 GMT -8
I've taken some time to try to absorb all of this. Are you saying that you think heaven may not be a place in the sky but heaven could be a place right here on earth? If yes, is that your personal opinion or that of all MJ's? The Olam Haba, the world to come will be here on earth. What I am saying about heaven is that as a temporary holding pen for the souls of saints, I don't know enough to be comfortable making a definitive statement on it.I ask the first part because I am thinking since God said to Abraham to look to the heavens, that means there is a heaven and also that heaven is in the sky and not on earth?
I'm not arguing either way for heaven as you believe it exists. Certainly there is a heaven where Adonai resides. Will we go there, or just sleep in the dust until called? Maybe others can give you a definitive answer. I cannot in good conscious do that. Sorry. I will however be happy to discuss specific scriptures if you like; or help as I can.
I can say that I do not think what we believe about this will effect our salvation. Nor will it change whatever God's plan for us is. I just trust in Him that everything will work out the best for us.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Apr 11, 2020 7:40:42 GMT -8
Looking at the streaming service now, I am not seeing a "cross" anywhere and last time I had views the entire service I remember it being focused more on God the Father than on Christ. Is this because MJ's see Christ as God?
One JW had told me they focus more on the Father than on Christ so just curios.
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Post by alon on Apr 11, 2020 9:16:01 GMT -8
One JW had told me they focus more on the Father than on Christ ... I don't know about the JW's. However:
Looking at the streaming service now, I am not seeing a "cross" anywhere and last time I had views the entire service I remember it being focused more on God the Father than on Christ. Is this because MJ's see Christ as God? It depends. Most here believe Yeshua to be a manifestation of HaSHem, the Father. So if you are speaking of one you are speaking of the other, unless speaking about a specific personification. Some Messianics still believe in a Trinity, others have different views. So with different services, different assemblies, etc., you may get different views of the nature of HaSHem. So I can't speak for the service you saw. However here is a pretty good example of what I believe:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4696/3-primary-manifestations-god
Simple answer- yes, Yeshua, "the" Christ is God.
The Cross itself is a symbol of Christianity. Some Messianics believe Yeshua was hung on a single stake, with no cross member. I don't think it matters. Focus on what He did for us, what all He willingly and silently underwent for us, not on what the "Tree" looked like. Messianics tend to see the Cross also as an idol. Not all, but many churches are close to if not actually idolatrous in their use of and worship before a Cross. We do use symbols- the Magen Dovid, menorah, etc. But each one in its place and none in a place where it can be worshiped. But typically you won't see a cross in a Messianic service.
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Post by mystic on Apr 11, 2020 15:34:21 GMT -8
Ok thx. Next and sorry to be so detailed in my questions and being maybe a bother but now I guess you know how my mind works sighhhhhhh.
The Shema night time prayer shows Jews believe that "when you sleep at night the soul goes up to heaven for a daily accounting" so, this should mean we you die your soul goes up to heaven permanently? If that is accurate then when Christ comes for his people this should mean the dead are already there.
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Post by alon on Apr 11, 2020 15:49:06 GMT -8
Ok thx. Next and sorry to be so detailed in my questions and being maybe a bother but now I guess you know how my mind works sighhhhhhh. The Shema night time prayer shows Jews believe that "when you sleep at night the soul goes up to heaven for a daily accounting" so, this should mean we you die your soul goes up to heaven permanently? If that is accurate then when Christ comes for his people this should mean the dead are already there.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
