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Post by rakovsky on Nov 23, 2019 12:27:42 GMT -8
Dan, for Question 4, can you please help me with Psalm 30:3? I am trying to check if it refers to death and reviving.
It runs, "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive (ḥî-yî-ṯa-nî), that I should not go down to the pit."
(יְֽהוָ֗ה הֶֽעֱלִ֣יתָ מִן־שְׁאֹ֣ול נַפְשִׁ֑י חִ֝יִּיתַ֗נִי [מִיֹּורְדֵי־ כ] (מִיָּֽרְדִי־בֹֽור׃ ק
The Mechon-Mamre Bible website has this Hebrew text: יְהוָה--הֶעֱלִיתָ מִן-שְׁאוֹל נַפְשִׁי; חִיִּיתַנִי, מיורדי- (מִיָּרְדִי-) בוֹר.
I originally took God bringing David's soul up from the grave to mean that David was in a state of death and then God brought him out of it.
But in that case, how would you translate the underlined part? If David says that God "kept him alive", maybe that means that he was never in a state of death, and therefore the Psalm is not about resurrection? Or does it mean that he was brought out of the grave and then God kept him alive so that his body didn't decay/go to the pit?
The word Hiyitani, translated "thou hast kept me alive" in the KJV, comes from Hayah, to live. By comparison, in Psalm 119:93, the same verb, or a similar verb, is translated has "For by them You have revived me"(כִּ֥י בָ֝֗ם חִיִּיתָֽנִי׃). The translation has a different result. If Hiyitani meant the same thing in Psalm 30, David would be thanking God for reviving him in Psalm 30.
The Russian Synodal translation says that God "ozhivil" him, meaning that God enlivened him, which goes along with the interpretation of reviving or resurrecting him.
IIRC, I looked into this before and the Hebrew word means "enlivened."
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Post by alon on Nov 23, 2019 22:12:51 GMT -8
Dan, for Question 4, can you please help me with Psalm 30:3? I am trying to check if it refers to death and reviving. It runs, "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive (ḥî-yî-ṯa-nî), that I should not go down to the pit." (יְֽהוָ֗ה הֶֽעֱלִ֣יתָ מִן־שְׁאֹ֣ול נַפְשִׁ֑י חִ֝יִּיתַ֗נִי [מִיֹּורְדֵי־ כ] (מִיָּֽרְדִי־בֹֽור׃ קThe Mechon-Mamre Bible website has this Hebrew text: יְהוָה--הֶעֱלִיתָ מִן-שְׁאוֹל נַפְשִׁי; חִיִּיתַנִי, מיורדי- (מִיָּרְדִי-) בוֹר. I originally took God bringing David's soul up from the grave to mean that David was in a state of death and then God brought him out of it. But in that case, how would you translate the underlined part? If David says that God "kept him alive", maybe that means that he was never in a state of death, and therefore the Psalm is not about resurrection? Or does it mean that he was brought out of the grave and then God kept him alive so that his body didn't decay/go to the pit? Probably either close to death from a wound or in grave peril from his enemies. My guess is the latter.
The word Hiyitani, translated "thou hast kept me alive" in the KJV, comes from Hayah, to live. By comparison, in Psalm 119:93, the same verb, or a similar verb, is translated has "For by them You have revived me"( כִּ֥י בָ֝֗ם חִיִּיתָֽנִי׃). The translation has a different result. If Hiyitani meant the same thing in Psalm 30, David would be thanking God for reviving him in Psalm 30. Not necessarily. Most Hebrew terms may have several meanings depending on context.
The Russian Synodal translation says that God "ozhivil" him, meaning that God enlivened him, which goes along with the interpretation of reviving or resurrecting him. IIRC, I looked into this before and the Hebrew word means "enlivened." It’s a bit dangerous to use a word-for-word translation between any two languages, particularly Hebrew and English; or almost anything but Hebrew and Aramaic. As I understand (I don’t speak either) they’re closely related and so may share meanings.
Joy Comes with the Morning
A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.
30 I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.[Or to life, that I should not go down to the pit]
4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.[Hebrew to the memorial of his holiness]Looking at the 1st 4 vss we can see this is a song of praise and thanksgiving. Melech Dovid is giving thanks and glory to HaShem for saving his life and his soul from destruction. So vs 3 would not be talking about a physical resurrection, rather miraculous salvation.
Psalm 119:1-8 (ESV)
Your Word Is a Lamp to My Feet
Aleph
119 (a) Blessed are those whose way is blameless,
who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep his testimonies,
who seek him with their whole heart,
3 who also do no wrong,
but walk in his ways!
4 You have commanded your precepts
to be kept diligently.
5 Oh that my ways may be steadfast
in keeping your statutes!
6 Then I shall not be put to  ,
having my eyes fixed on all your commandments.
7 I will praise you with an upright heart,
when I learn your righteous rules.
8 I will keep your statutes;
do not utterly forsake me!
…
93 I will never forget your precepts,
for by them you have given me life.Footnotes:
(a) Psalm 119:1 This psalm is an acrostic poem of twenty-two stanzas, following the letters of the Hebrew alphabet; within a stanza, each verse begins with the same Hebrew letter
acrostic- 1. A poem or series of lines in which certain letters, usually the first in each line, form a name, motto, or message when read in sequence.105 נֵר־לְרַגְלִ֥י דְבָרֶ֑ךָ וְ֝א֗וֹר לִנְתִיבָתִֽי׃
106 נִשְׁבַּ֥עְתִּי וָאֲקַיֵּ֑מָה לִ֝שְׁמֹ֗ר מִשְׁפְּטֵ֥י צִדְקֶֽךָ׃
107 נַעֲנֵ֥יתִי עַד־מְאֹ֑ד יְ֝הוָ֗ה חַיֵּ֥נִי כִדְבָרֶֽךָ׃
108 נִדְב֣וֹת פִּ֭י רְצֵה־נָ֣א יְהוָ֑ה וּֽמִשְׁפָּטֶ֥יךָ לַמְּדֵֽנִי׃
109 נַפְשִׁ֣י בְכַפִּ֣י תָמִ֑יד וְ֝תֽוֹרָתְךָ֗ לֹ֣א שָׁכָֽחְתִּי׃
110 נָתְנ֬וּ רְשָׁעִ֣ים פַּ֣ח לִ֑י וּ֝מִפִּקּוּדֶ֗יךָ לֹ֣א תָעִֽיתִי׃
111 נָחַ֣לְתִּי עֵדְוֺתֶ֣יךָ לְעוֹלָ֑ם כִּֽי־שְׂשׂ֖וֹן לִבִּ֣י הֵֽמָּה׃
112 נָטִ֣יתִי לִ֭בִּי לַעֲשׂ֥וֹת חֻקֶּ֗יךָ לְעוֹלָ֥ם עֵֽקֶב׃Psalm 119:105-112 (ESV)
Nun
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light to my path.
106 I have sworn an oath and confirmed it,
to keep your righteous rules.
107 I am severely afflicted;
give me life, O Lord, according to your word!
108 Accept my freewill offerings of praise, O Lord,
and teach me your rules.
109 I hold my life in my hand continually,
but I do not forget your law.
110 The wicked have laid a snare for me,
but I do not stray from your precepts.
111 Your testimonies are my heritage forever,
for they are the joy of my heart.
112 I incline my heart to perform your statutes
the reward is eternal.According to Dr F Seekins in his book Hebrew Word Pictures, "Each of the verses in the 14th stanza of Psalm 119 starts with the letter (Nun). Because the letter (Nun) means action or life, these eight verses tell us that God's word is like a lamp to my feet (allowing action even in the dark). When I am afflicted, I can turn to God to revive me (verse 107)."That probably best explains the use of the term.
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Post by rakovsky on Nov 24, 2019 6:19:30 GMT -8
My take on psalm 30 is that the plane meaning is resurrection. The narrator says that God brought his soul out of sheol or the grave. If his soul was brought out of the grave or sheol, then the implication is that his soul had been there, just like if you were brought up from the basement of a house, or from a cellar, then implication is that you were in the cellar. You can suppose that David is writing about a time in his life when he was very ill or was in grave Danger, and did not mean it literally. But a poem is a piece of writing or literature and it is open to interpretation he did not specify whether he meant it literally, like a near-death experience, or if he was only using it as a figure of speech. So he did write that he was taken up from the grave and this means Resurrection and you are left to suppose whether he meant it figuratively or literally or who he was talking about. Because there is also the theory that in some songs David was not talking about himself like he was in Psalm 3, but that he was talking about the Messiah when he said in Psalm 22 that he was pierced in his arms and legs. The narrator in Psalm 22 is curious. If you suppose that David was not talking about himself but was making it a direct Prophecy of the Messiah, I guess you could say that the singer in Psalm 21 was talking about the king being saved and Psalm 22 is the song of the king who was saved in Psalm 21.
Or you could suppose that some Psalms are about the experiences of some believers, so that someone in Psalm 30 was in fact having in your death experience. Because some people do.
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2019 7:01:09 GMT -8
My take on psalm 30 is that the plane meaning is resurrection. The narrator says that God brought his soul out of sheol or the grave. If his soul was brought out of the grave or sheol, then the implication is that his soul had been there, just like if you were brought up from the basement of a house, or from a cellar, then implication is that you were in the cellar. So, when a CEO tells his salesmen "Our sales are in the cellar," would he be saying all sales occurred in the cellar, or that all future sales should occur in the cellar? Or might the "cellar" refer to that portion of the horizontal "break even" line on a chart of their sales that, while not shown still would be where you'd have to chart sales revenuesYou can suppose that David is writing about a time in his life when he was very ill or was in grave Danger, and did not mean it literally. But a poem is a piece of writing or literature and it is open to interpretation he did not specify whether he meant it literally, like a near-death experience, or if he was only using it as a figure of speech. Yes, a poem is a piece of writing which typically uses such literary devices as Metaphor, "A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison." So the "cellar" is a metaphor for sales being in the toilet. Metaphors add a visual component to the idea they have not been meeting sales goals. Likewise, David's soul being (metaphorically) in sheol gives us a picture of just how low he was at that point in his life.
The cellar, toilet, and sheol could also qualify as allegories, physical representations of abstract ideas; another very common literary device used in poetry; especially biblical poetry. Again, you absolutely must consider context in order to get an accurate reading and understanding.
So he did write that he was taken up from the grave and this means Resurrection and you are left to suppose whether he meant it figuratively or literally or who he was talking about. Because there is also the theory that in some songs David was not talking about himself like he was in Psalm 3, but that he was talking about the Messiah when he said in Psalm 22 that he was pierced in his arms and legs. The narrator in Psalm 22 is curious. If you suppose that David was not talking about himself but was making it a direct Prophecy of the Messiah, I guess you could say that the singer in Psalm 21 was talking about the king being saved and Psalm 22 is the song of the king who was saved in Psalm 21. You don't have to try so hard to make this a type of Yeshua. The picture still fits. But this is not a story about the resurrection of David. Had this been the case, a different form of narrative wold have been used, and the place would have been in the history or prophets, not (just) in Psalms. David, from whose line HaMoshiach Yeshua would come being metaphorically lifted from the pit of sheol might be a bit weaker type than an actual resurrection. But it is still prophetic, and still a type.
Or you could suppose that some Psalms are about the experiences of some believers, so that someone in Psalm 30 was in fact having in your death experience. Because some people do. Again, a near death experience or just a close call from a wound is a possibility. But given the context this is likely just about a man in the deapths of despair, looking for some light, some hope, which he finds in his God. |
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Post by rakovsky on Nov 24, 2019 19:30:08 GMT -8
My take on psalm 30 is that the plane meaning is resurrection. The narrator says that God brought his soul out of sheol or the grave. If his soul was brought out of the grave or sheol, then the implication is that his soul had been there, just like if you were brought up from the basement of a house, or from a cellar, then implication is that you were in the cellar. So, when a CEO tells his salesmen "Our sales are in the cellar," would he be saying all sales occurred in the cellar, or that all future sales should occur in the cellar? Or might the "cellar" refer to that portion of the horizontal "break even" line on a chart of their sales that, while not shown still would be where you'd have to chart sales revenuesI am not sure what you mean by the underlined part, but I would take it to mean that the sales are much lower than they should be. Like a newspaper needs to sell X amount of papers to stay afloat or break even, but they are not selling even that amount, X. |
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2019 19:35:42 GMT -8
I am not sure what you mean by the underlined part, but I would take it to mean that the sales are much lower than they should be. Like a newspaper needs to sell X amount of papers to stay afloat or break even, but they are not selling even that amount, X. |
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Post by rakovsky on Nov 30, 2019 11:48:37 GMT -8
Wikipedia's article on 666 notes that 15, 21, 36, and 666 are triangular numbers, that the sum of the consecutive numbers from 1 to 36 = 666, that 15 + 21 = 36, and that 15^2 + 21^2 = 666. On the other hand, in the TALK section of the article, a commentor cast doubt on this being remarkable, writing: =========================== True enough, but in general, any square number can be written as the sum of two consecutive triangular numbers, and the sum of the squares of these triangular numbers equals the number triangled. For example,
4=1+3; 1+2+3+4=10; 12+32=10.
9=3+6, 1+2+3...+9=45, 32+62=45.
======================================== Yeah, I'm not following that. The numbers didn't come across correctly when I posted them because some were in superscript as exponents. Wikipedia's article on 666 notes that 15, 21, 36, and 666 are triangular numbers, that the sum of the consecutive numbers from 1 to 36 = 666, that 15 + 21 = 36, and that 15^2 + 21^2 = 666.The TALK page commentor doubted that this was significant, because "In general, any square number can be written as the sum of two consecutive triangular numbers, and the sum of the squares of these triangular numbers equals the number triangled." He gave an example where a square number (4) can be written as the sum (4) of two consecutive triangular numbers (1 and 3), and the sum (10) of the squares (1^2+3^2) of these triangular numbers (1 and 3) equals the number triangled (1+2+3+4=10) So he wrote: 4=1+3; 1+2+3+4=10; 1^2+3^2=10. So he was saying that the part in bold isn't remarkable because it is true of any triangled number. Here, a square number (36) is written as the sum (15+21=36) of two consecutive triangular numbers (15 and 21), and the sum (666) of the squares (15^2+21^2) of these triangular numbers (15 and 21) equals the number triangled (1+2+3...+36=666) |
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Post by rakovsky on Nov 30, 2019 13:45:11 GMT -8
This thread helped me address alot of issues in the stories of David and Solomon.
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Post by alon on Nov 30, 2019 17:33:08 GMT -8
This thread helped me address alot of issues in the stories of David and Solomon.
The numbers made more sense in that last post about them too. Guess an old dog can learn.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
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