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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2017 17:30:29 GMT -8
I have a question. I often write the various names and titles of G-d here on the forum. This includes the most Sacred Name, or titles with that name in them: יהוה, Yeh-va. And although I do not use those names as often, I am rethinking using them at all. Most English Bibles translate יהוה as “LORD.” This substitution follows ancient Hebrew tradition, also observed in the 1st cen by the writers of the New Testament. It was customary among Jews to avoid pronouncing the Sacred Name by substituting אֲדֹנָי Ad-nai, or “L-rd.” In Greek this is κύριος. The Jews aversion to saying the Name probably is due to a deep reverence. Titles were and are common when we speak of persons in authority. Children for example typically do not call their father by his given name, military leaders are called by their rank, and the president is referred to as Mr. President. So we follow this to an extent. However the Jews were (and are) extremely conscious of how they address Ad-nai. Another thing to consider is that Jews often had to live or deal with Gentiles. These might not speak with the same reverence and respect for the Holy One of Israel. It would have been difficult for Jews to tolerate this blasphemy, so they would want to keep the Name secret from the heathens. It was also common pagan practice to use the names of deities in spells, incantations and curses as a means of controlling or appealing to these petty gods. The Jews were commanded not to take the name of their G-d in vain. So are Christians ... it's in the Ten Commandments. Jews revered the name of Ad-nai so much that whenever the High Priest said it they fell on their faces and repeated "Baruch Shem kavod malchuto, l'loam vayed," “Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever.” This is also the common liturgical response to the Sh'ma. Philo of Alexandria spoke of the customs of the Second Temple period (535 BCE to 70 CE). He described the head-dress of the Cohen Hagadol which bore the words קדש ליהוה “kadosh to יהוה.” It’s also in  : Exodus 39:30 (NASB) They made the plate of the holy crown of pure gold, and inscribed it like the engravings of a signet, “Holy to the Lord.”
Philo said that only the pure in the holy place (the Temple) were permitted to pronounce or hear the Name: “And a golden leaf was wrought like a crown, having engraved on it the four [letters] of the name which only those whose ears and tongues are purified unto wisdom may hear or speak in the holy place, and by no one else at all in any place whatever.” The Talmud says that the Name was spoken only by priests in the Temple “The pronunciation of the written Name was used only by the priests in the Temple when blessing the people (Num. vi. 22-27); outside the Temple they used the title ‘Adonai’ (Sotah vii. 6; p. 38a). The high priest mentioned the Name on Yom Kippur ten times (Tosef., Yoma, ii.; 39b). R. Johanan said the sages delivered to their disciples the key to the Name once in every Sabbatical year.” The Jewish Encyclopedia vol. 9, pge. 162. Yeshua taught us how to use the Name: Matthew 6:9a,b (NASB) “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Mark 14:36 (NASB) And He was saying, “Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.”
Romans 8:15 (NASB) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
Galatians 4:6 (NASB) Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Contemporary Jews use the term HaShem, “The Name,” which is Biblical. “Hashem El-him” is used 24 times in the book of Genesis in reference to G-d. We barely get into the second chapter where we find: Bereshis 2:4 (OJB) These are the toldot of HaShomayim and of Ha’Aretz when they were created, in the Yom that Hashem Elohim made Eretz v’Shomayim,
Genesis 2:4 (ESV) These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Up to now my position has been that if it is in the Bible it was revealed to us to be used. But in light of all this, I am wondering if I should not avoid using יהוה other than in the most serious discussions (like this one) where it might be necessary for clarity in discussion. Your thoughts? Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 1, 2017 17:11:39 GMT -8
I personally feel a bit nervous when I hear it, especially in Christian songs. I don't know why, but I just think it isn't always respectful to have His name like that in a recorded song somehow. It seems a little haphazard to me. Prayer and reverence is different, and then I believe we are commanded to call on His name. I think it should perhaps be in more intimate times of prayer and closeness with Him or in times of true communal need or desperation - when you know people are united in heart and mind for His purpose and direction. That's just my comfort zone, and then I would seek His help and almost permission because He is G-d and it is an honor that He gave us His name. I have heard that we are unsure of the pronunciation also.
Regardless, I also don't want to offend Jewish people any more than I have to. G-d keeps showing me I need to be more careful with people recently. That's not specific to this issue, but my conclusion is in line with what He has been showing me. Be careful with His people and be careful with Him.
I think it's respectful to follow their example on this one out of acknowledgment that they are the ones who kept His name. We can acknowledge history and be grateful for the blessing they have given us. While they were honoring G-d and keeping His name, the rest of us were insulting Him. I won't argue, and I just don't need to make this an issue or discomfort.
Besides, the truth of the Gospel itself is enough of a rift to have to overcome. I really hate that people who have suffered so much needless death have to come to terms with that much more loss because of the truth I have to share. I don't know, but my personal feeling is enough difficulty, enough to overcome, and I am indebted to them regarding this. Why not just be compassionate and honor feelings and contribution as much as we can?
I just realized you were speaking of writing them and I commented on saying His name. I will leave this comment as is because it speaks to a concern I have had, and simply say that I am in agreement with your inclination about typing or writing titles and names as well.
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Post by Questor on Dec 2, 2017 23:19:12 GMT -8
YHVH is G-d's name...however you pronounce it, and even though Jews have always been reverent, they didn't stop using the name in common greeting until they were being killed for it under Emperor Hadrian.
The Rabbi's forbade people to use it when the Romans started killing people for using it in blessing. It was sworn by regularly, as was required by Moshe before the Rabbi's protected people from getting killed by the Roman's, and never resumed because of ignorance, not reverance. There are letters from AD 70 and long before of people using YHVH as a statement of being truthful...just as they were supposed to.
As usual, people chose traditions over the commandments when it was no longer needed for safety, and possibly will have to explain that foolishness at the White Throne Judgement.
YHVH is written in the Hebraic Scriptures (the Old Testament) over 7000 times, in the Hebrew, with the appropriate vowel points that relate to YHVH/Yehowah, depending on pronouncing a vav as 'v' or a 'w' sound. No one was trying to say Adonai then, or HaShem, though those are nice references to G-d. So is G-d, or Ha Shamayim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Melech ha Olam, Sar Shalom, or even Yehoshua.
Redacted: cannot teach how to say the names. Dan
My Hebrew teacher is Yemeni in origin, and hates the vav being pronounced as a 'v', and will himself not break the traditions, but he's firm on how to pronounce things, probably because he's an Hebraic/Aramaic/Arabic/Akkadian scholar. I think the 'w' sounds softer and is more beautiful than a 'v' sound, but that's personal preference. Ashkenazi Jews use the 'v' sound, and claim it is not their own, more Yiddish variant.
Redacted We are not supposed to be Allahites, and being a Shemite is redundant.
But YHVH was pronounced in greeting one another long before this time of forbidding people to use the actual name of G-d in blessing.
Boaz greeted his reapers with "YHVH be with you," and they answered, "YHVH bless thee" "The blessing of YHVH be upon you; we bless you in the name of YHVH"). They did not say Ha Shem or Adonai, but the name of G-d as G-d commanded. A greeting in G-d's name was a blessing to those greeted, and given back as a blessing in response.
Pronounce as you please, Abba will understand, but how you can be called in the title of G-d and be known in the title of G-d leaves me wondering about people's common sense. The Shema has G-d's name in it, no matter how it is twisted into a title out of obedience to a tradition, and later of supposed reverance, but people died to pronounce G-d's actual name in blessing!
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (NJB)
4 ‘Listen, Israel: YHWH our God is the one, the only YHWH.
5 You must love YHWH your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength.
Exodus 3:13-15 (NJB)
13
Moses then said to God, ‘Look, if I go to the Israelites and say to them, “The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,” and they say to me, “What is his name?” what am I to tell them?'
14 God said to Moses, ‘I am he who is.' And he said, ‘This is what you are to say to the Israelites, “I am has sent me to you.” '
15 God further said to Moses, ‘You are to tell the Israelites, “YHWH, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.” This is my name for all time, and thus I am to be invoked for all generations to come.
Ruth 2:4 (NJB)
4 Boaz, as it happened, had just come from Bethlehem. ‘YHWH be with you!' he said to the reapers. ‘YHWH bless you!' they replied.
Psalm 129:8 (NJB)
8 And no passer-by will say, ‘The blessing of YHWH be on you! ‘We bless you in the name of YHWH.'
Genesis 22:14 (YLT)
14 and Abraham calleth the name of that place `Jehovah-Jireh,' because it is said this day in the mount, `Jehovah doth provide.'
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NJB)
14 if my people who bear my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my presence and turn from their wicked ways, then I will listen from heaven and forgive their sins and restore their country.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 3, 2017 8:28:29 GMT -8
Questor, you know more about the history than me. Maybe that's why I am a bit more cautious on this subject. I don't know exactly why but it makes me uncomfortable so that's my personal approach at this point. In general, that is my starting point because I do worry about offending G-d and other people. That's my perspective and this is sincerely something G-d is working through with me; being careful with Him and others and knowing how to be humbly confident in Him.
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2017 10:41:54 GMT -8
Questor, what is your source that it was the Rabbis wishing to protect the people from the Romans who commanded the Name not be used?
Dan
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Post by Questor on Dec 3, 2017 20:59:05 GMT -8
The Rabbi executed under Hadrian between 130 to 137 AD was Hanina Ben Teradion
See Babylonian Talmud Avodah Zera 17b-18a
Abba Saul, a Rabbi who survived the Hadrianic persecutions gave a ruling not to speak the name of G-d. It was a survival technique, to keep the Rabbi’s from being destroyed, and having no one to carry on the teaching, but the Rabbi’s never reviewed the need for the new Halachah, and left G-d’s name in silence after that. They supposedly passed on how to pronounce YHVH every 7 years to their disciples, in secret, but used 'Adonai' in public and private everywhere else.
To offset the non-use of G-d's name in the Aaronic blessing, a hand sign was originated. This is what gave rise what we know as the handsign of Spock…’Live long and Prosper’, but when used with both hands, and pointing downward is a rather vague representation of the Tetragrammaton…something that was known, but not spoken of to outsiders.
 See attachment of ancient sketch.
The Rabbi’s have a tradition that when Mashiach comes, YHVH will be pronounced again, but they are not willing to do so themselves…as they have no desire to break the traditions in place.
See Babylonian Talmud. Pesachim 501
See also Midrash Tehillim on 36:7(8) in regard to how common was the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, and the Midrash Tehillim on Psalms 92:8 quoting Isaiah 52:5 and Psalms 91:15, respectively about the possibility that because Israel does not pray in the actual name of YHVH, they receive no answer, whereas we who pray to YHVH in the name of Yeshua, with is the short name for ‘YHVH our Savior’, is heard in heaven.
This tradition is repeated in Pesikta Rabbati, section 22.
The same thing happened in the days of the Maccabees – when the Greeks persecuted those who spoke G-d’s name. The Greeks made decrees to eradicate Israel, ordering them to deny the kingdom of heaven, to declare they have no portion with the G-d of Israel, and to not mention the heavenly name on their lips.
See Scholion on Megilat Ta’anit, 3rd of Tishrei.
There is a 10th Century Karaite Historian, Jacob Kirkasani, who reports many Karaite Jews of his day spoke the Tetragrammaton, and that one faction of Persian Karaite Jews went to the extremes of saying that those who replaced the Name of G-d with the title Adonai, or HaShem, were unbelievers.
See Ya’qub al-Qiqisani on Jewish Sects and Christianity, Frankfurt 1984, page 155
I do not want anyone to be irreverent, but speaking G-d’s name, and talking to YHVH as YHVH is what G-d commanded, and so I will do, and recommend others do so as well.
It was in order to understand to know how to pronounce G-d’s name I began to study both Biblical and Modern Hebrew…to understand the use of words, and the pronunciation of words and names, even If I knew I would never be truly fluent in Hebrew until the Kingdom.
But even so, it is better to mispronounce the Name of G-d while doing so reverently, than to make an idol of his titles and traits, and draw up the skirts of my robes in horror that the holy name of G-d might be spoken inappropriately. I may only be lisping the name of G-d as a 3-year old child does, but at least G-d knows I am calling out to him, and only him, for any god can be called 'adonai' or 'ha shem' or 'baali', even as these terms can apply to YHVH.
Psalm 44:11-21 (NJB)
11 You hand us over like sheep for slaughter, you scatter us among the nations,
12 you sell your people for a trifle and make no profit on the sale.
13 You make us the butt of our neighbours, the mockery and scorn of those around us,
14 you make us a by-word among nations, other peoples shake their heads over us.
15 All day long I brood on my disgrace, the  written clear on my face,
16 from the sound of insult and abuse, from the sight of hatred and vengefulness.
17 All this has befallen us though we had not forgotten you, nor been disloyal to your covenant,
18 our hearts never turning away, our feet never straying from your path.
19 Yet you have crushed us in the place where jackals live, and immersed us in shadow dark as death.
20 Had we forgotten the name of our God and stretched out our hands to a foreign god,
21 would not God have found this out, for he knows the secrets of the heart?
Calling out to Adonai and to HaShem is just like calling out to idols, and it is written about in the Psalms before it happened, but Abba knows our hearts and to whom we are calling, yet if we know his name and do not use it, it becomes a sin because of the commandment o G-d to use his name.
Exodus 23:13 (NJB)
13 ‘Take notice of everything I have told you and do not mention the name of any other god: let none ever be heard from your lips.
Numbers 6:22-27 (NJB)
22 YHWH spoke to Moses and said,
23 ‘Speak to Aaron and his sons and say: “This is how you must bless the Israelites. You will say:
24 May YHWH bless you and keep you.
25 May YHWH let his face shine on you and be gracious to you.
26 May YHWH show you his face and bring you peace.”
27 This is how they must call down my name on the Israelites, and then I shall bless them.'
1 Kings 8:33-51 (NJB)
33 ‘When your people Israel are defeated by the enemy because they have sinned against you, but then return to you and acknowledge your name, and pray and seek your favours in this Temple,
34 then listen from the place where you reside in heaven; forgive the sin of your people Israel, and bring them back to the country which you gave to their ancestors.
35 ‘When the heavens are shut and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, if they pray in this place and praise your name and, having been humbled by you, desist from their sin,
36 then listen from the place where you reside in heaven and forgive the sin of your servant and your people Israel—for you are constantly showing them the good way which they must follow—and send rain on your country, which you have given to your people as their heritage.
37 ‘Should there be famine in the country, or pestilence, wind-blast or mildew, locust or caterpillar; should their enemy lay siege to one of their gates; should there be any plague or any disease:
38 whatever be the prayer or entreaty of any individual aware of a particular affliction: when that person stretches out the hands towards this Temple,
39 then listen from heaven where you reside; forgive and, since you know what is in the heart, deal with each as their conduct deserves—for you alone know what is in every human heart—
40 so that they may reverence you throughout their lives in the country which you gave to our ancestors.
41 ‘Even the foreigner, not belonging to your people Israel but coming from a distant country, attracted by your name—
42 for they too will hear of your name, of your mighty hand and outstretched arm—if a foreigner comes and prays in this Temple,
43 listen from heaven where you reside and grant all that the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may acknowledge your name and, like your people Israel, revere you and know that this Temple, which I have built, bears your name.
44 ‘If your people go out to war against the enemy, on whatever missions you send them, and they pray to YHWH, turning towards the city which you have chosen and towards the Temple which I have built for your name,
45 then listen from heaven to their prayer and their entreaty and uphold their cause.
46 ‘When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and abandon them to the enemy, and their captors carry them off to a hostile country, be it far away or near,
47 if they come to their senses in the country to which they have been taken as captives and repent and entreat you in the country of their captors, saying, “We have sinned, we have acted perversely and wickedly,”
48 and turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the country of the enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to you, turning towards the country which you gave to their ancestors, towards the city which you have chosen and towards the Temple which I have built for your name,
49 listen to their prayer and their entreaty from the place where you reside in heaven, uphold their case,
50 forgive your people for having sinned against you and for all the crimes against you of which they have been guilty, and allow them to arouse the pity of their captors so that these may have pity on them:
51 for they are your people and your heritage whom you brought out of Egypt, that iron foundry!
Zephaniah 3:9-13 (NJB)
9 Yes, then I shall purge the lips of the peoples, so that all may invoke the name of YHWH and serve him shoulder to shoulder.
10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, my suppliants will bring me tribute.
11 When that Day comes you will never again be ashamed of all the deeds with which you once rebelled against me, for I shall rid you of those who exult in your pride; never again will you strut on my holy mountain.
12 But in you I shall leave surviving a humble and lowly people,
13 and those who are left in Israel will take refuge in the name of YHWH. They will do no wrong, will tell no lies; nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths. But they will be able to graze and rest with no one to alarm them.
Jeremiah 12:14-17 (NJB)
14 YHWH says this, ‘As regards all my evil neighbors who have laid hands on the heritage I granted my people Israel, look, I shall uproot them from their soil, (though I shall uproot the House of Judah from among them).
15 But having uprooted them, I shall take pity on them again and bring them back each to its own heritage, each to its own country,
16 and if they carefully learn my people's ways and swear by my name, “As YHWH lives”, as they have taught my people to swear by Baal, then they will be re-established among my people.
17 But if any nation refuses to listen, I shall uproot it forever and destroy it, YHWH declares.'
Ruth 2:4 (NJB)
4 Boaz, as it happened, had just come from Bethlehem. ‘YHWH be with you!' he said to the reapers. ‘YHWH bless you!' they replied.
The early Rabbis taught “a man is required to greet his fellow using the name YHVH.
Mishnah, Berachot 9:5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketef_Hinnom
In 1979, two tiny silverscrolls, inscribed with portions of the well-known prophylactic Priestly Blessingfrom the Book of Numbers and apparently once used as amulets, were found in one of the burial chambers. The delicate process of unrolling the scrolls while developing a method that would prevent them from disintegrating took three years. They contain what may be the oldest surviving texts from the Hebrew Bible, dating from around the late 7th to early 6th century BCE, and are now preserved at the Israel Museum.
Contents
[hide]
• 1History
• 2Significance
• 3The scrolls
o 3.1KH1 (27 × 97 mm; 1.0 × 3.75 inches)
o 3.2KH2 (11 × 39 mm; 0.5 × 1.5 inches)
• 4Apotropaic nature of the amulets
• 5Indirect literary dependency
• 6See also
• 7References
• 8Further reading
• 9External links
History[edit]
Gabriel Barkay at Ketef Hinnom
The scrolls were found in 1979 in Chamber 25 of Cave 24 at Ketef Hinnom, during excavations conducted by a team under the supervision of Gabriel Barkay, who was then professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University.[5] The site appeared to be archaeologically sterile (the tomb had last been used for storing rifles during the Ottoman period), but a chance discovery by a 13-year-old "assistant" revealed that a partial collapse of the ceiling long ago had preserved the contents of Chamber 25.[6]
A reconstruction indicates that there were five chambers and a central 'hall' in cave 24. The cave could hold about 22+ bodies on benches, each with a headrest of stone. Under three of the chambers in the cave there were repositories. The repositories were used for secondary burial, which means that the bones and other remains of the long deceased body were removed and put into the repository, thus making space for another body on that particular bench.[7] The chambers were neatly cut with smoothed surfaces using the royal cubit as measure. The repositories, such as that under chamber 25, had rough surfaces and a sack-like form, thus it was not intended to be seen. Ketef Hinnom cave 24 has a similar outline and capacity as the Mamilla cave complex 1 and 2, however, these cave complexes have more rooms than cave 24 at Ketef Hinnom. To accommodate more people Ketef Hinnom cave 24 has used the large chamber to the right to accommodate about 10 people, whereas this room in the Mamilla cave complexes did not have benches, thus probably they were used for chemical treatment of the bodies.
The repository under chamber 25 contained approximately 60 cm of material with over a thousand objects: many small pottery vessels, artifacts of iron and bronze (including arrowheads), needles and pins, bone and ivory objects, glass bottles, and jewelry including earrings of gold and silver. In addition, the excavators found two tiny silver scrolls, referred to below as KH1 and KH2. The tomb had evidently been in use for several generations from about 650 BCE, that is towards the end of the First Temple period, and it continued to be used after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587/6 BCE.
KH1 was found in Square D, the middle of the repository, 7 cm above the floor, while KH2 was found while sifting dirt from the lower half of the deposits in Square A, the innermost portion of the repository. Both amulets were separated from Hellenistic artifacts by 3 meters of length and 25 cm of depth, and embedded in pottery and other material from the 7th/6th centuries BCE.
Barkay initially dated the inscriptions to the late-7th/early-6th centuries BCE, but later revised this date downward to the early 6th century on paleographic grounds (the forms of the delicately incised paleo-Hebrew lettering) and on the evidence of the pottery found in the immediate vicinity. This dating was subsequently questioned by Johannes Renz and Wolfgang Rollig,[8] who argued that the script was in too poor a condition to be dated with certainty and that a 3rd/2nd century BCE provenance could not be excluded, especially as the repository, which had been used as a kind of "rubbish bin" for the burial chamber over many centuries, also contained material from the fourth century BCE.
A major re-examination of the scrolls was therefore undertaken by the University of Southern California's West Semitic Research Project, using advanced photographic and computer enhancement techniques which enabled the script to be read more easily and the paleography to be dated more confidently. The results confirmed a date immediately prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586/7 BCE.[9] Kyle McCarter of Johns Hopkins University, a specialist in ancient Semitic scripts, has said the study should "settle any controversy over [the date of] these inscriptions".[10]
Significance[edit]
The 2004 team described the scrolls as "one of most significant discoveries ever made" for biblical studies.[11] Apart from their significance for our knowledge of the development of the Hebrew alphabet, the scrolls "preserve the earliest known citations of texts also found in the Hebrew Bible and ... the earliest examples of confessional statements concerning YHWH." The reference to YHWH as "Rebuker of Evil," found in later incantations and amulets associated with Israel, is evidence that these artifacts were also amulets.[10]
Dr. Wayne Pitard has stated that although evidence for the antiquity of the Priestly Blessing is now compelling, this does not necessarily mean that the Book of Numbers already existed at that time.[10] Dr. James R. Davila has similarly pointed out that the idea that while the scrolls show that "some of the material found in the Five Books of Moses existed in the First Temple period", the suggestion that they are "proof that the Five Books of Moses were in existence during the First Temple period" (as described in an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz) is "an overinterpretation of the evidence." [12]
According to the team which led the most conclusive reexamination of the scrolls:
Based on our new analysis and reading of these texts, we can reaffirm with confidence that the late preexilic period is the proper chronological context for the artifacts. We can further reassert the conclusion reached by most scholars: that the inscriptions found on these plaques preserve the earliest known citations of texts also found in the Hebrew Bible and that they provide us with the earliest examples of confessional statements concerning YHWH.[13][14]
The scrolls[edit]
The scrolls are known as KH1 and KH2. They are written in Paleo-Hebrewcharacters (see Paleo-Hebrew alphabet) not the Aramaic square script more familiar to most modern readers. Text below in square brackets represents informed deduction.
KH1 (27 × 97 mm; 1.0 × 3.75 inches)[edit]
• [Top line(s) broken]
1. ...] YHW ...
2. [...]
3. the grea[t ... who keeps]
4. the covenant and
5. [G]raciousness towards those who love [him] and (alt: [hi]m;)
6. those who keep [his commandments ...
7. ...].
8. the Eternal? [...].
9. [the?] blessing more than any
10. [sna]re and more than Evil.
11. For redemption is in him.
12. For YHWH
13. is our restorer [and]
14. rock. May YHWH bles
15. you and
16. [may he] keep you.
17. [May] YHWH make
18. [his face] shine ...
• [Bottom line(s) broken.]
Compare lines 3–6 to:
• Exodus 20:6 – showing mercy to thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments
• Deuteronomy 5:10 – showing mercy to thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments
• Deuteronomy 7:9 – keeping covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations
• Daniel 9:4 – keeping covenant and mercy to them that love Him, and to them that keep His commandments
• Nehemiah 1:5 – keeping covenant and mercy for them that love Him and observe His commandments
The omission of "thousands" may have originally appeared on line 7 as in Deuteronomy 7:9.
KH2 (11 × 39 mm; 0.5 × 1.5 inches)[edit]
A photograph of KH2 and a transcription of the letters is shown below
• [Top line(s) broken: For PN xxxx]
1. -h/hu. May be blessed h/sh-
2. -[e] by YHW[H,]
3. the warrior/helper and
4. the rebuker of
5. [E]vil: May bless you,
6. YHWH,
7. keep you.
8. Make shine, YH-
9. -[W]H, His face
10. [upon] you and g-
11. -rant you p-
12. -[ea]ce.
• [Bottom line(s) broken.]
Compare lines 7–13 to Numbers 6:24–26:
6:24 YHWH bless you and keep you;
6:25 YHWH make his face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
6:26 YHWH lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.
(Note that the two bold italicized phrases above are not present on this scroll; also note that all of Numbers 6:25–26 may have appeared on KH1 after line 18 where the scroll has disintegrated).Attachments:
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Post by Questor on Dec 3, 2017 21:11:52 GMT -8
Questor, you know more about the history than me. Maybe that's why I am a bit more cautious on this subject. I don't know exactly why but it makes me uncomfortable so that's my personal approach at this point. In general, that is my starting point because I do worry about offending G-d and other people. That's my perspective and this is sincerely something G-d is working through with me; being careful with Him and others and knowing how to be humbly confident in Him.
I am doing what I know to be good for me to do, and what I think is good for anyone to do. But I am aware that most people do not have the time or inclination to look at the proofs available, and that some people are too tied up in their communities to go off and do something against their communities halachah.
I do not think that being a lone sheep is good for everyone...living within a community to me is dangerous and I risk being wrong all the time. But to me taking others opinions for your own is just as risky, but I admit that it is more comfortable than striking out on your own.
I am doing what I do in the attempt to obedient to what the Scriptures say first, and to take what man says second, that's all.
Blessedly where I may be too bold is covered by grace, and where you may be too cautious is also covered by grace.
Abba understands the heart in those of us that seek him.
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2017 21:49:47 GMT -8
But even so, it is better to mispronounce the Name of G-d while doing so reverently, than to make an idol of his titles and traits, and draw up the skirts of my robes in horror that the holy name of G-d might be spoken inappropriately. I may only be lisping the name of G-d as a 3-year old child does, but at least G-d knows I am calling out to him, and only him, for any god can be called 'adonai' or 'ha shem' or 'baali', even as these terms can apply to YHVH. ... Thanks. Looks like you've done some research on the topic. I think regardless what you call Him, the Almighty knows when you are addressing Him and what your heart condition is when you do so. Any of the names, titles or character descriptions given to God in any of His manifestations is appropriate, as long as used with reverence and respect. But even the Tetragrammaton can be abused, used wrongly or even applied to another god ... a thing that makes me cringe just to write about it! That's why I am looking into it and rethinking how I will use it. I agree we were given the name and commanded to use it. ut we are also commanded to separate the holy from the profane. And I can think of nothing mer holy than the name that represents the Creator. So using it in common conversation might make it ordinary; profane. That I want to avoid. Somewhere between the Rabbinical proscription of using it at all and the Protestant over familiarity (though they use the term "God" like it was His name) I think the truth lies. But I am thinking it is closer to the Jewish tradition just because of the awe and respect they show. But a lot of how we use the name will depend on how we were raised and what we are accustomed to. Your information certainly will help in fine tuning my use of all the names. I use the names and attributes given in scripture all the time when I do serious write-ups here. They help make my points. But I feel I need to be especially careful when I do this. Appreciate the help. Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 4, 2017 10:40:37 GMT -8
Here is an example of a name being so grossly misused that the LORD refuses to allow its’ use in reference to him.
Hosea 2:16And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. 17For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
I still disagree that Hebrew has titles as English does. Hebrew has names (shem) or descriptions of the person being referred to. The closes thing to a “title” in hebrew is a written name as seen below.
2 Kings 23:17 then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel.
John 19:19 Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
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Post by alon on Dec 4, 2017 12:10:51 GMT -8
Here is an example of a name being so grossly misused that the LORD refuses to allow its’ use in reference to him. Hosea 2:16And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. 17For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. I still disagree that Hebrew has titles as English does. Hebrew has names (shem) or descriptions of the person being referred to. The closes thing to a “title” in hebrew is a written name as seen below. 2 Kings 23:17 then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel. John 19:19 Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. jimmie, how do you see the term Elohim, the first term used of God; and by God Himself, no less? In Hebrew, which has no capital letters, elohim can mean any person in authority. We capitalize it both to show respect and to show we are talking about the Almighty. So I see it as a title; but you often have a different perspective. אִישׁ ʼîysh, eesh; contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation):—also, another, any (man), a certain, champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, (foot-, husband-) man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man(-kind), none, one, people, person, steward, what (man) soever, whoso(-ever), worthy
בעלי Baali Baʻălîy, bah-al-ee'; from H1167 with pronoun suffix; my master; Baali, a symbolical name for Jehovah.
In the context of Hoseah 2:16 the terms would mean husband and master, respectively. These too I would see as titles. How would you see them? Most of the "names" we see in scripture are really descriptions of God's character, which was a common way to give names in ancient Hebrew. So I can see not calling these titles. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Dec 4, 2017 12:58:50 GMT -8
But even so, it is better to mispronounce the Name of G-d while doing so reverently, than to make an idol of his titles and traits, and draw up the skirts of my robes in horror that the holy name of G-d might be spoken inappropriately. I may only be lisping the name of G-d as a 3-year old child does, but at least G-d knows I am calling out to him, and only him, for any god can be called 'adonai' or 'ha shem' or 'baali', even as these terms can apply to YHVH. ... Thanks. Looks like you've done some research on the topic. I think regardless what you call Him, the Almighty knows when you are addressing Him and what your heart condition is when you do so. Any of the names, titles or character descriptions given to God in any of His manifestations is appropriate, as long as used with reverence and respect. But even the Tetragrammaton can be abused, used wrongly or even applied to another god ... a thing that makes me cringe just to write about it! That's why I am looking into it and rethinking how I will use it. I agree we were given the name and commanded to use it. ut we are also commanded to separate the holy from the profane. And I can think of nothing mer holy than the name that represents the Creator. So using it in common conversation might make it ordinary; profane. That I want to avoid. Somewhere between the Rabbinical proscription of using it at all and the Protestant over familiarity (though they use the term "God" like it was His name) I think the truth lies. But I am thinking it is closer to the Jewish tradition just because of the awe and respect they show. But a lot of how we use the name will depend on how we were raised and what we are accustomed to. Your information certainly will help in fine tuning my use of all the names. I use the names and attributes given in scripture all the time when I do serious write-ups here. They help make my points. But I feel I need to be especially careful when I do this. Appreciate the help. Dan C
I do admit, however, that I find the use of the soft pronounciation of YHVH, using a 'w' sound for the 'vav; and the drawn out use of the four vowels has added a marvelous reverence and awe to my prayers...just saying many things that are descriptive of Abba's being is like caressing him with my voice...speaking out in love:
Sh'ma, Israel, YHVH eloheinu, YHVH echad,
YHVH Tsa'va'ot, YHVH Yirai, YHVH Rapha
El Shaddai, El Elyon, El Gibbor,
Melech haOlam, Sar Shalom, Yehoshua,
blessed art thou, for thou has caused the earth to grow green, and bear fruit that we might eat, and caused us to come forward to this day, even unto this moment.
It is not a ritualized prayer, as I change the names and descriptions and title from time to time, but it is a satisfying statement of love.
No doubt the Hebrew is most improper, although with name/titles it is hard to tell, but the feeling is certainly there. |
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Post by alon on Dec 4, 2017 13:23:09 GMT -8
I do admit, however, that I find the use of the soft pronounciation of YHVH, using a 'w' sound for the 'vav; and the drawn out use of the four vowels has added a marvelous reverence and awe to my prayers...just saying many things that are descriptive of Abba's being is like caressing him with my voice...speaking out in love:
...
It is not a ritualized prayer, as I change the names and descriptions and title from time to time, but it is a satisfying statement of love.
No doubt the Hebrew is most improper, although with name/titles it is hard to tell, but the feeling is certainly there. Ah, Q, you do like to push the envelope ... that comes close to instructing in how to say the Name. But OK. It's not how I say it, but I will resist the urge to tell you how that is and just let this one slide. Movin' on ...  There is nothing wrong with ritual, as long as we are always mindful of what we are saying and not just repeating it by rote. And we non-Hebrew speakers have to be careful about changing things up because, as you allude to in your post, we will probably get it wrong. This would be a constant source of amusement as well as cannon fodder for many who do speak the language and want to denigrate MJ. And yes, when you use the term Abba I, and probably everyone her can figure out who you mean. He certainly does. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 5, 2017 13:20:09 GMT -8
Thanks for all the information friends.
I have a related question. It may sound kind of silly but it is sincere. Abraham called on the name of G-d before the name was given to Moses so there must be more to what it means to "call on His name" than addressing Him in a certain way or maybe even aligning your will with Him in a certain way.
This brought up in my mind what does it actually mean to "call on His name"? Maybe there is more understanding in the Hebrew, but I am not sure I know exactly what it means to call on G-d's name. It seems there's more to it than the kind of prayer we're familiar with. Perhaps there is more history that I need to understand. The sense of pleading that phrase indicates seems important to me, but I am not sure if there is more to it and I think that there must be.
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Post by jimmie on Dec 5, 2017 15:01:30 GMT -8
[]jimmie, how do you see the term Elohim, the first term used of God; and by God Himself, no less? In Hebrew, which has no capital letters, elohim can mean any person in authority. We capitalize it both to show respect and to show we are talking about the Almighty. So I see it as a title; but you often have a different perspective. אִישׁ ʼîysh, eesh; contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation):—also, another, any (man), a certain, champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, (foot-, husband-) man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man(-kind), none, one, people, person, steward, what (man) soever, whoso(-ever), worthy
בעלי Baali Baʻălîy, bah-al-ee'; from H1167 with pronoun suffix; my master; Baali, a symbolical name for Jehovah.
In the context of Hoseah 2:16 the terms would mean husband and master, respectively. These too I would see as titles. How would you see them? Most of the "names" we see in scripture are really descriptions of God's character, which was a common way to give names in ancient Hebrew. So I can see not calling these titles. Dan C alon, I see Elohim/God/Powers the same as I see YHVH/LORD/(the one who exists), as a shem/name/description of the person being spoken of. Most names in most cultures are really descriptions of a person character. The vestige of this practice can still be seen in many English names: Patronymic names: Johnson, Allison, Richardson, Rogers, Wilson, Benson, Evans, Roberts, Adams Occupation names: Taylor, Smith, Tyler, Wright, Chapman, Baker, Barker, Fiddler, Daymon(dairyman), Fisher, Cook, Bell, Bridgestone (actually translated from Japanese) Place names: Bush, Atwoods, Woods, Ford, Oxford, Kent, Devon, Hill, Sykes(marshy stream) Descriptive names: Little, White, Gray, Black, Armstrong, Goodchild, Puttock(greedy or wise), Young Look at some Native American Names Sacajawea-Bird Woman Pocahontas-Playful one Sitting Bull Red Cloud Geronimo-one who yawns We should not apply the way names are currently handle in English culture to the bible names with a different culture. The ability to correctly pronounce YHVH, is infinitely small in comparison to knowing His Name/Character. Prov 22:1A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. Abba's Name/Character is the best Name/Character. |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 5, 2017 15:20:29 GMT -8
Elizabeth,
To call upon the Name of God is to call upon his Character or Being. We have the seven sons of Sceva as a witness of what happens to someone using God's name, instead of calling upon his Name/Character.
Abraham knew of the name YHVH for he used it as you say, but primarily used Elohim. After Moses, YHVH was preferred over Elohim by Abba.
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