Who says John was Elijah?

[chelsey]

In the NT felt that Jesus was the Messiah, then Elijah the Prophet must have reappeared before he came. Therefore, according to the gospel of Matthew, Chapter 11 and Chapter 17, John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet.


Now, it's certainly easy for New Testament writers to claim that John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet, but we must examine whether or not that's true. When we read through the New Testament, we find some problematic information. For example, in the first chapter in the gospel of John, the Jewish people ask John the Baptist, "Are you Elijah the Prophet?" And he responds "No, I am not Elijah the Prophet." Christian apologists will try to get around this problem by claiming that even though John the Baptist was not Elijah the Prophet, John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah the Prophet. However, there are several problems with this claim. First of all, the Jewish bible predicted that Elijah the Prophet himself would return. It does not say that someone would come in the spirit of Elijah the Prophet. Secondly, when asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn't claim any association at all with Elijah. He didn't say, "No, I am not Elijah, but I've come in the spirit of Elijah." He flatly denied being Elijah the Prophet. And thirdly, the prophecy about the return of Elijah the Prophet says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There's no indication that john the Baptist accomplished this prophecy at all. How does one come to understand this? One would have to say someone is not telling the truth. Redacted- disrespecting the Messiah will not be tolerated.

[garrett]

Hi Chelsey - What is your belief system? Would you be willing to share a basic statement of what your religious faith is?

It would help me - to know where you are coming from.

Take care - Mark

[chelsey]

Would you be willing to try and answer the question regardless of how you think I should hear it based on what my religion is?

[alon]

Jan 11, 2015 17:30:03 GMT -8 chelsey said:

One would have to say someone is not telling the truth. Redacted- disrespecting the Messiah will not be tolerated.

Jan 11, 2015 20:01:09 GMT -8 chelsey said:

Would you be willing to try and answer the question regardless of how you think I should hear it based on what my religion is?

Moderator warning: Tone down the rhetoric. If you are an anti-missionary, or an aspiring one, please note that you can ask questions. But disrespecting both Biblical characters and other posters here will not be tolerated. You've laid dormant since March of 2013, now suddenly you post three threads and in each you are challenging and disrespectful. You may ask questions, and you may challenge the answers, but you may not disrupt the forum nor be rude and disrespectful. The forum rules can be found here:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2009/forum-rules-guidelines

Please read them and PM me that you understand and will abide by them or you will be banned. Note too that this is your only warning about disrespecting Yeshua.

Dan C
Moderator

[alon]

Jan 11, 2015 17:30:03 GMT -8 chelsey said:

In the NT felt that Jesus was the Messiah, then Elijah the Prophet must have reappeared before he came. Therefore, according to the gospel of Matthew, Chapter 11 and Chapter 17, John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet.


Now, it's certainly easy for New Testament writers to claim that John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet, but we must examine whether or not that's true. When we read through the New Testament, we find some problematic information. For example, in the first chapter in the gospel of John, the Jewish people ask John the Baptist, "Are you Elijah the Prophet?" And he responds "No, I am not Elijah the Prophet." Christian apologists will try to get around this problem by claiming that even though John the Baptist was not Elijah the Prophet, John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah the Prophet. However, there are several problems with this claim. First of all, the Jewish bible predicted that Elijah the Prophet himself would return. It does not say that someone would come in the spirit of Elijah the Prophet. Secondly, when asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn't claim any association at all with Elijah. He didn't say, "No, I am not Elijah, but I've come in the spirit of Elijah." He flatly denied being Elijah the Prophet. And thirdly, the prophecy about the return of Elijah the Prophet says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There's no indication that john the Baptist accomplished this prophecy at all. How does one come to understand this? One would have to say someone is not telling the truth. Either way you have a lying person, either John or Yeshu.

Had the tone been different, this is actually a good question. I'll try to answer it, but as you know if you've been reading the last year and a half we are all searching for answers ourselves, so it may take some time. I'll give initial impressions now though:

First off, John was honest and said he was not Elijah.

It is possible that he "came in the spirit of Elijah", but Christians do tend to spiritualize things they can't explain. So I am willing to look for an alternative answer.

You should know that most here have left the Christian church in part because they do not look too deep into these things.

Lastly, Jews and Christians and Messianics all believe the Messiah will come in the end days, so every prophecy was not fulfilled in the first coming. Could this be one of those times? Not sure. Could Elijah be one of the two witnesses in Rev 11:3? Again, we are not told, so ... . But we are told that in the end days the nation as a whole will turn to Yeshua as God.

Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yeshua told the truth here, as Israel has been left desolate (don't take that too personally as it only puts you on a par with the Gentiles in this respect- we've always been desolate, so welcome to our world!). And something or someone will turn their hearts to God (and we believe Yeshua to be God), so that someone could well be Elijah!

I'll do some research and get back to you though because I want to see myself.

Dan C

By the way, it would help if you gave your scripture references when you say "the NT says".

[jimmie]

Questions are often answered differently according to the audience.
Ps 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Ps 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Consider the audience:
John spoke to agents of the Pharisees (the blind). I am not Elijah but then told them “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah.” In other words, if you know the prophets you would know who he (John) was.
Jesus spoke to the multitudes (the followers of the blind) confirming that John was Elijah. He also spoke to his disciples (the seeing) concerning John and they understood it.

[Elizabeth]

This is an interesting topic. This verse has always intrigued me.

Matthew 11: 14-15, Yeshua states,
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force, for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Clearly there is more to what Yeshua is saying than, "yes, he is Elijah."    His statement is a challenge to understand which He was well aware of and stated. I don't understand it.  However, based on the complete statement, I know more consideration needs to be given to the "willing to receive it" aspect as well as and the future tense Yeshua uses. 

[alon]

Moderator note: Chelsey has been banned. Please do not make any remarks to or about her as she is not able to respond or to defend herself. I am leaving the thread up as it is an interesting and worthwhile topic, and there have been some good points made already. So feel free to continue discussion. Dan

[alon]

John 1:21 ESV And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not.""Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

John 1:25 ESV They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

Malachi 4:5 ESV "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.”
***Note: in the JPS TNK this is Mal 3:23

JPS commentary (just the highlights): … Since Elijah did not die, but ascended into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), he can return. The awesome fearful day of the LORD is associated with the “travails of the messiah” in b. Sanh. 118a.

I could not find any document titled b. Sanh. 118a in a search. However this does coincide with what I was taught as a possibility when I was in Christian churches. And I’ve heard the “spirit of Elijah” explanation before as well. The sticking point is did he turn the hearts of the people to their parents and children? Certainly those who accepted his message of repentance had their lives changed. But enough that the land was not stricken? The Jewish people were scattered not all that long afterwards. Possibly this is a precursor, a type of what is to come.

Another question (in my mind) is why did the Pharisees ask him why he “baptized”? The Greek word “baptidzo” would probably have been “tevilah” in the original Hebrew text. Any Rabbi could perform tevilah, and John was not only a Rabbi, but was one with his own rather large following. The only answer I can think of is they were not challenging his authority to baptize, but to announce the coming of the Messiah. jimmie already gave a good credible response on this.

Dan C

[alon]

Jan 12, 2015 9:25:11 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

This is an interesting topic. This verse has always intrigued me.

Matthew 11: 14-15, Yeshua states,
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force, for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Clearly there is more to what Yeshua is saying than, "yes, he is Elijah."    His statement is a challenge to understand which He was well aware of and stated. I don't understand it.  However, based on the complete statement, I know more consideration needs to be given to the "willing to receive it" aspect as well as and the future tense Yeshua uses. 

Elizabeth, this too was a good, well thought out response. It would seem to support the "came in the spirit of Elijah" explanation. The future tense as you said, the fact that Elijah did not die and so may come back- but I wouldn't think he'd be born a second time, but rather just as himself, just as he was. And if John was a precursor, part of a type of the second advent, then "if you are willing to receive it" yes, he was "in the spirit of Elijah."

Dan C

[alon]

(From: www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat8b.htm
I came across this on the UMJA site’s studies and thought it might help. Edited for brevity, but essentially their teaching)

Matthew 11:14 (ESV) and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Key to this verse are the words “if you (Israel) are willing to accept it (the Kingdom).” Yeshua is saying if they His people accepted Him and the Kingdom offer, then John would play the role foretold of Elijah. However John clearly says that he is not Elijah (John 1:21), yet Yeshua says that he could be. An apparent contradiction; the answer is found in Luke account where we are told John comes in the "spirit and power" of Elijah:

Luke 1:17 (ESV) and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

The idea of someone coming "in the spirit" of another is not foreign to Judaism. The prophet Elias asked for a "double helping" of Elijah's spirit. Neither is the idea of Elijah playing dual roles alien to Jewish writings. In the following citations, we see Elijah mysteriously hiding himself in order to fulfill an early and later role:

Midrash Zuta, shir haShirim 2:8 - The voice of my beloved, behold it cometh (Songs 2;8). These are the voices which will come in the future before the Messiah ... For the door (of Redemption) will not be opened completely at once, but Elijah will come to one city and remain hidden to another, and will speak to one man and remain hidden to his neighbor ...

Seder 'Olam Rabba, ch. 17 - In the second year of (King) Ahazia, Elijah was hidden, and he will not be seen again until King Messiah comes. And then he will be seen but will be hidden a second time, and seen again only when Gog and Magog come.

This second section (above) is especially interesting, as Elijah comes with Messiah the first time and returns a second time at "Gog and Magog." Yet we know that "Gog and Magog" is directly associated with Messiah, hence He must come twice as well:

Talmud, Mas. Avodah Zarah 3b - ... but when the battle of Gog-Magog will come about they will be asked, ‘For what purpose have you come?’ and they will reply: ‘Against God and His Messiah’

Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2,Page 57b - “Thy right hand, O Lord, glorified in power”, refers to this time, to this world; the words “Thy right hand will dash the enemy” to the time of the Messiah; “ln the fulness of thy majesty thou wilt overthrow thine opponents” to the time of Gog and Magog;

(See also: Talmud; Berachoth 10a, Shabbat 118a; Sanhedrin 94a; Leviticus Rabbah 30:5, Song of Songs Rabbah 4:20)

Hope this helps some; it did for me.

Dan C

[garrett]

Was John "baptizing" people (mikveh) as a basic means of purification for preparation for the Messiah? This is basically how I understood it, since he was operating in the role of a rabbi.

Also, good talmudic and midrashic references above - thanks.

garrett

[alon]

Aug 14, 2015 5:51:07 GMT -8 garrett said:

Was John "baptizing" people (mikveh) as a basic means of purification for preparation for the Messiah? This is basically how I understood it, since he was operating in the role of a rabbi.

Also, good talmudic and midrashic references above - thanks.

garrett

John baptized to repentance as a statement people were purifying themselves so they could accept the Kingdom Offer made by Yeshua. Tevilah (ritual immersion in a mikvah) was done for many reasons, and you are right that it symbolizes purity.

Acts 19:4-8(ESV) And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all. And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Dan C

[garrett]

Interesting - it's curious (to my knowledge) how there are so many Christians who will become baptized AFTER they accept Messiah. But in John's time, they repented, went through purification and the L-rd came. The evolution is wild.

To me, John added a real twist this use of "baptism" with relation to the Messiah.

Now it tries to exist in very many forms - garrett

[alon]

Aug 15, 2015 8:18:55 GMT -8 garrett said:

Interesting - it's curious (to my knowledge) how there are so many Christians who will become baptized AFTER they accept Messiah. But in John's time, they repented, went through purification and the L-rd came. The evolution is wild.

To me, John added a real twist this use of "baptism" with relation to the Messiah.

Now it tries to exist in very many forms - garrett

It does seem "twisted" when we look at tevilah the same as our contemporary baptism; and baptism did have its roots in the practice of tevilah. The problem is the church immediately twisted it like they did everything else.

A practicing Jew went through tevilah for many reasons: women after their period, men after an emission, priests getting ready for Temple service, and those who underwent a major change in their beliefs, like joining another sect. John was the leader of his own very large sect, one of many who preached repentance at that time. He baptized (performed tevilah) into his own following, preaching repentance in order to make way for Moshiach. Those who later believed in Yeshua as Moshiach would again undergo tevilah coming into the sect of the Nots'rim, who are the forefathers of true Meshiachim today.

They would continue to undergo tevilah for all the reasons listed above, and more. The church has twisted its meaning to be a one time thing when you accept Jesus; or things like sprinkling and infant baptism. So when thinking about tevilah, we need to get away from church doctrines and think like the 1st cen Hebrews did about it. Tevilah is not baptism, and baptism had its roots in tevilah, but the tree itself is contorted and stunted; an ugly, twisted relative of a beautiful, meaningful practice- one we should be doing every chance we get.

We don't generally have access to a mikvah (place where tevilah is done), or to a rabbi who can perform tevilah. This is why n'tilat yadayim is so important to us. It is like tevilah for the hands.

Dan C

edit: looked up thread on n'tilat yadayim-

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3305/ntilat-yadiyim