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Post by alon on Aug 5, 2014 14:18:01 GMT -8
10. It is a negative commandment not to make any idol to be worshiped [by himself or by anyone else], even for a heathen.
Vayikra 19:4(OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds); I am Hashem Eloheichem.
Leviticus 19:4 (CJB) "Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God."
If a person transgressed and made one, he should receive whiplashes.
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Post by alon on Aug 5, 2014 14:21:19 GMT -8
Again with whipping for making idols. So I should just go ahead and help the wife with the tree this year. I'll simply submit myself to - who? - who could possibly want to whip me anyhow?
Dan  C
But then, since I'll eventually have to submit myself to God, and He said not to make or worship idols, and I'm guessing that (grace aside) He whips with a heavy hand ... maybe I'll just try to remove the idols from my life and not make or bow to any others.
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Post by Micha'el on Aug 5, 2014 15:09:18 GMT -8
Shalom! When you have no control over a situation, default to obey as best as you can.... Don't bow down to it.  |
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alex
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Post by alex on Aug 5, 2014 20:52:44 GMT -8
10. It is a negative commandment not to make any idol to be worshiped [by himself or by anyone else], even for a heathen.
Vayikra 19:4(OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds); I am Hashem Eloheichem.
Leviticus 19:4 (CJB) "Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God." If a person transgressed and made one, he should receive whiplashes. I thought idols were three dimensional objects of worship, carved, cast or living, as in Caesar or Pharoah. What about revering yourself instead of God? Like doing what you want rather than what you should, for instance? |
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Post by alon on Aug 5, 2014 21:55:22 GMT -8
10. It is a negative commandment not to make any idol to be worshiped [by himself or by anyone else], even for a heathen.
Vayikra 19:4(OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds); I am Hashem Eloheichem.
Leviticus 19:4 (CJB) "Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God." If a person transgressed and made one, he should receive whiplashes. I thought idols were three dimensional objects of worship, carved, cast or living, as in Caesar or Pharoah. What about revering yourself instead of God? Like doing what you want rather than what you should, for instance?
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 5:29:09 GMT -8
In my thinking it is whatever is ruling your life. Money, sex, oneself, people, our jobs, our time, etc.
However in the verses that Alon shared this was going on in the time of the Israelites. Where they were literally making themselves idols and bowing down to them and worshiping them.
However one will nto see that so much today. But what is ruling our lives now?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Aug 6, 2014 9:38:42 GMT -8
Vayikra 19:4(OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds);
Two parts to the injunction:
Turn ye not unto elilim- the term elhim is plural for powerful beings or judges, sometimes applied to magistrates; anything or anyone you set in judgment over yourself.
nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds)- on my recent visit to Sacred Heart in Spokane, a Catholic hospital, I had to pass by a large statue of the Virgin Mary every time I came and went. I actually felt a malfeasant presence there. Doesn't always happen, but this isn't the first time I've felt like that in the presence of an actual idol. I firmly believe there are demonic beings attached to these things, and when we bow to one we submit to the authority of demons. We also give worship due only to God to a petty god.
We can set ourselves up as our own god as well, but that is the meanest, weakest god of them all. Without God's protection, who are we to stand against our enemy or even the weakest of his angels?
Dan C
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Post by alon on Aug 6, 2014 13:45:24 GMT -8
This came up in a different study:
Deu 32:21 They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Jer 8:19 Behold, the cry of the daughter of my people from the length and breadth of the land: "Is the LORD not in Zion? Is her King not in her?" "Why have they provoked me to anger with their carved images and with their foreign idols?"
Jer 14:22 Are there any among the false gods of the nations that can bring rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Are you not he, O LORD our God? We set our hope on you, for you do all these things.
Just thought it was applicable.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2014 16:56:06 GMT -8
I thought idols were three dimensional objects of worship, carved, cast or living, as in Caesar or Pharoah. What about revering yourself instead of God? Like doing what you want rather than what you should, for instance?
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2014 17:02:57 GMT -8
16. It is a negative commandment not to turn one's attention to idolatry.
Vayikra 19:4(OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds); I am Hashem Eloheichem.
Leviticus 19:4 (CJB) "Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God."
It is forbidden to turn one's attention to them (idols) in speech or in thought, or even by observing. And it is forbidden to read their [idol worshipers] books or to ask them how they worship: for as a result of that one will give it his attention and reflect on it. Whoever turns toward it, in a way that involves some action, should receive whiplashes.
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Post by alon on Aug 17, 2014 17:26:48 GMT -8
OK, confession time: I really liked the Harry Potter series for just some "mindless" reading. And I shoulda been whipped for reading them books- because there is no such thing as mindless reading. In fact, reading without your mind engaged is probably even worse than studying the things! Now this was pre-MJ, but still I oughta've known better! And I still get flashes of things from those books even though I now renounce, denounce a-nounce (neg, or anti nounce) the books. So I see the Rabbis point.
However, is this one we can keep? I mean, how can you come against something unless you study it? How can I tell my Christian friends about the pitfalls of Christmas unless I study what it really is about? How would I not turn my attention to the idol of Mary at the hospital in Spokane when, even before coming into its presence I felt something bad; and when I walked past it, with her larger than life form looking down, hands holding her scarf up so she appeared for all the world to be a demon about to take flight! It gets your attention! I tell ya, it was flashbacks to HP!
So really, this is one I'd say understand what the Rabbis are saying, but don't get too hung up on it if you have to, or just inadvertently do break it. And don't go reading any HP books either!
One ex-HP fans opinion.
Dan  C
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Post by Questor on Aug 20, 2014 2:07:51 GMT -8
OK, confession time: I really liked the Harry Potter series for just some "mindless" reading. And I shoulda been whipped for reading them books- because there is no such thing as mindless reading. In fact, reading without your mind engaged is probably even worse than studying the things! Now this was pre-MJ, but still I oughta've known better! And I still get flashes of things from those books even though I now renounce, denounce a-nounce (neg, or anti nounce) the books. So I see the Rabbis point.
However, is this one we can keep? I mean, how can you come against something unless you study it? How can I tell my Christian friends about the pitfalls of Christmas unless I study what it really is about? How would I not turn my attention to the idol of Mary at the hospital in Spokane when, even before coming into its presence I felt something bad; and when I walked past it, with her larger than life form looking down, hands holding her scarf up so she appeared for all the world to be a demon about to take flight! It gets your attention! I tell ya, it was flashbacks to HP!
So really, this is one I'd say understand what the Rabbis are saying, but don't get too hung up on it if you have to, or just inadvertently do break it. And don't go reading any HP books either!
One ex-HP fans opinion.
Dan C
I will say that I do not recommend them to people who do not understand the complete unreality of the fictional world, or who are bothered by it, but then I would also say, if fiction is a problem, no matter the topic, then you should avoid it all...even movies about the most innocent of things, for if you cannot see a fictional representation as completely divorced from reality, such as a nice little western by Louis L'Amour or a Tom Clancy adventure, or for that matter The Screwtape Letters and the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis, then you are in danger from anything that is not direct, proven fact. A cartoon about Mickey Mouse would be just as dangerous, and we should also avoid the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote.
I was brought up reading fiction from the Blue Fairy Book at age 5 or so, and Harry Potter's world is based on much of what is in Grimm's fairytales.
Keep them from children, by all means...at least until they know that fairy tales aren't true, and that witches with high powered broomsticks battling an evil Sorceror is classic literature. I am, however, in desperate need of a House Elf, but alas...they do not exist. Books written for the amusement of humans predicated on mythological charactors from non-religious authors are not anything close to inquiring into other religions for the sake of practicing those religions.
I still look into information about the Pagan Religions when necessary to clarify just what in secular life comes from those pagan religions so that I can divorce them from my life, but the rule given was to encourage not indulging in mere curiousity lest people be lead astray. |
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Post by alon on Aug 20, 2014 10:47:47 GMT -8
You should listen to "White Rabbit" by Jefferson Airplane (probably in your vinyl collection  ). Listen to the message- the 60's drug culture was formed by those harmless fairy tales being read to children. And the target audience for HP was children. So what kind of culture might be formed by those books being read by children?
J K Rowling has a degree in the occult, and much of what is in those books is sound Wiccan and Pagan doctrine and practices. Do you know for example that there is such a thing as a "bezoar" and it is used in witchcraft? Turns out Hermione wasn't the only one getting and education with Harry and the redheaded kid.
I now am careful what I read and watch. What we feed our minds on is what we gravitate towards.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Aug 20, 2014 22:36:07 GMT -8
You should listen to "White Rabbit" by Jefferson Airplane (probably in your vinyl collection ). Listen to the message- the 60's drug culture was formed by those harmless fairy tales being read to children. And the target audience for HP was children. So what kind of culture might be formed by those books being read by children?
J K Rowling has a degree in the occult, and much of what is in those books is sound Wiccan and Pagan doctrine and practices. Do you know for example that there is such a thing as a "bezoar" and it is used in witchcraft? Turns out Hermione wasn't the only one getting and education with Harry and the redheaded kid.
I now am careful what I read and watch. What we feed our minds on is what we gravitate towards.
Dan C
As for Wiccan and Pagan Doctrine...the people I have met from that area of life don't have enough humor to enjoy the whimsical social commentary in the Potter books, or the use of mythological characters to tell a morality tale. Wiccans, Druids and the like are having way too much fun trying to connect with the dark side with spells and rituals than to read about good triumphing over evil. Having spent many years in the occult (age 15 to 22), I found the driving interest there is power through social manipulation, not understanding people or life, which is probably why I just could not get thoroughly into it, along with the protection I had from the Ruach despite my wayward ways. The Ruach was always tugging on my heart to get back to the Scriptures.
Fairy tales did nothing to cause the drug culture...that was sheer self indulgence of a lot of young people while rebelling against authority. It still is.
Even so, I moderate my time in such pursuits, and don't blame you for avoiding them if they trouble you, or you think they will cause problems for you. You were brought up in the Baptist culture which flees the implication of evil without looking at it to see if it is evil...not a bad practice, just not one I was brought up with...I was brought up Pagan...I will always see this differently. I see without the sensitivity you were trained to, and perhaps it does not affect me the same way. I only know I discuss it all with Abba as I read them, and hear and feel no condemnation.
As for the Potter books, I don't advocate them for anyone...I simply enjoy reading them for the excellent writing, and use of symbolism.
But then, the same is true of Alice in Wonderland...the book that inspired the song. |
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Post by alon on Aug 20, 2014 22:48:33 GMT -8
Au contraire, many of the pagans I have talked with have a great sense of humor (often at my expense, me being a believer at the time- they'd have a field day now that I am TO Natsar); they think they are doing great things connecting everything in the universe spiritually and all. And seems every witch CLAIMS to be a "white witch," doing only good ... however you are spot on with the control observation. The whole point of witchcraft is to gain some control over others. (Anyone doesn't believe that, just read Harry Po--- WAIT!  No, don't do that, just take my and Questers' word for it!) Their sense of humor tends to be "earthy", but they do have one.
Probably depends on the pagan(s) or witch(es).
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
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). Listen to the message- the 60's drug culture was formed by those harmless fairy tales being read to children. And the target audience for HP was children. So what kind of culture might be formed by those books being read by children?
