|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 13, 2014 17:01:55 GMT -8
Hebrew hermeneutics- a rigorous system of logic used for detailed interpretation of Scripture A. @ 98% of Scripture works on four levels simultaneously: a. p’shat- simple or literary. b. remez- meanings at which the texts hint, but don’t state obviously. c. d’rash- associations, what the text reminds us of. It compares and examines other scripture (and can include the Talmudic writings) which are or can be associated with the main text. It is the most difficult method of interpretation, because it requires understanding of individual scripture and the Bible as a whole, and one must look for and rightly discern these associations. But we can learn a whole lot more by this method . Problems arise whenever we start making associations without rules, limits or proper discernment. Your d’rash can then become a limitless exercise in pagan theology rather than a true d’rash. What about this claim that scripture can work on all four levels at once- and I would add that it can work in more than one way in any one given level! It is, after all, truly inspired by God. So a verse can have more than one meaning, more than one lesson, and apply to more than one situation, all of them accurate. Dan C
I see no end of fascination just in the English from Greek, but in the English from Hebrew, I know there is yet more, because of the language meanings for each word...leading to alternate understandings of a verse that are valid, but also the original script meaning for each letter can affect the flow of information as well, and changing the intent...all in the Ruach's hand to give to us! |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 16, 2014 11:41:01 GMT -8
OK, I was recently asked a question about whether there would be a new Garden of Eden in the New Jerusalem, because the Tree of Life would be there. So I TRIED to use what I've learned here to answer. I'll put up my reply and you can pick it apart:
The Scriptures
The Garden of Eden
Gen 2: 8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. 14 And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
A Lament over the King of Tyre
Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire,emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
Pharaoh to Be Slain
Ezekiel 31:1 In the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: "Whom are you like in your greatness? 3 Behold, Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches and forest shade, and of towering height, its top among the clouds. 4 The waters nourished it; the deep made it grow tall, making its rivers flow around the place of its planting, sending forth its streams to all the trees of the field. 5 So it towered high above all the trees of the field; its boughs grew large and its branches long from abundant water in its shoots. 6 All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; under its branches all the beasts of the field gave birth to their young, and under its shadow lived all great nations. 7 It was beautiful in its greatness, in the length of its branches; for its roots went down to abundant waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor the fir trees equal its boughs; neither were the plane trees like its branches; no tree in the garden of God was its equal in beauty. 9 I made it beautiful in the mass of its branches, and all the trees of Eden envied it, that were in the garden of God. 10 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because it towered high and set its top among the clouds, and its heart was proud of its height, 11 I will give it into the hand of a mighty one of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out.
Rev 2: 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
G3857 παράδεισος paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.
Note: it is an Eden, not the Eden
The River of Life
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
My D'rash
This is going to be a bit of a stretch for me, but I’ll try. Using g’zerah shavah (equivocal expressions) and banyan av mish’nei kethuvim (making a family from two or more texts) I can apply parallel development to these texts and come to an understanding. Simply put, they use similar language however clearly refer to different events and times in history. The similar language and references to particular things found in all these places and times means that they are connected in the spiritual realm. So we have a d’rash, a spiritual association which transcends time and location. In fact, the passage from Eze 28 also ties in the spiritual rulership of ha satan and his fall in the heavens.
In the Garden, God gave Adam dominion; he ruled over, cared for and was responsible to God for all that was in the Garden. In the same way a king is responsible to God for all God has given him dominion over. When Adam did evil in the sight of the Lord, he was removed from the Garden. Likewise, kings who do evil and do not repent are removed. The gold and the stones representing the wealth God granted Adam and these kings, as well as the leisure and pleasures of the gardens of each tie them allegorically together. Even ha satan enjoyed similar fellowship, perquisites and power until his sin of pride- which could be called the sin of kings.
Pastor Ed Cole says there is a spiritual principle: “Take the gold, but leave the glory.” The glory belongs to God. Adam, Pharaoh and the King of Tyre and ha satan all in their way tried to take what was God’s, and all were cast out of their respective gardens. However one day there will come a kingdom ruled by a king who cannot userp God, because He IS God! The Tree of Life and the river is the tie back to Eden. This is the restoration of our perfect fellowship with God, just as in the Garden. However I don’t see a new Garden of Eden here. Rather a more righteous king, a more perfect world and a more splendid city if we read contextually. The revelation of the river and the Tree of Life is a continuation and part of the previous chapter speaking of the New Jerusalem. It is not a New Eden, unless you want to speak of it allegorically like that.
So to answer the question, God gave the Garden of Eden to Adam to rule over it, however it was ultimately still God’s garden. Adam was put there to “work it and keep it.” There were also rules, one in particular- that he was not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Like Adam, God gives all rulers dominion, but He requires of them an accounting. And like Adam, they can be removed at God’s pleasure for their disobedience. But we look forward to a time when the Second Adam will rule and we'll have perfect fellowship, led by a perfect King!
Using these rules is not that easy, so feel free to comment- even criticize. Can't learn anything from nice people, so go ahead.
Dan (maybe a little trepidatious, but still somewhat intrepid!) C
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 16, 2014 16:10:12 GMT -8
I see no end of fascination just in the English from Greek, but in the English from Hebrew, I know there is yet more, because of the language meanings for each word...leading to alternate understandings of a verse that are valid, but also the original script meaning for each letter can affect the flow of information as well, and changing the intent...all in the Ruach's hand to give to us
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 16, 2014 22:21:38 GMT -8
I'll be the first to tell you it is difficult to retrain ourselves to properly use these methods and not abuse them. I tend to lean more to the factual and discredit the emotional. Others rely almost solely on their emotions. Either one is wrong. So let's talk about post #2 here- the one that talks about how we look at scripture. I personally have no problem with the idea that "every word" is not "God breathed." If, as mainC teaches, every word in scripture is given by God, and the Bible is infallible, totally accurate (since God doesn't make errors); then we have a problem. I don't think that 'God Breathed' means that the Scriptures are infallible as written...as clearly they are not. It is the information that is in them that is infallible.
Abba, speaking through man via the Ruach haKodesh automatically makes a sputtering pen of man. Despite the limited information within the Scriptures, we have sufficient account of what man experienced, observed, and wrote down while under the inspiration of the Ruach. And yet, every word in the Tanakh is so carefully placed that ELS codes pull out from those seemingly imperfect words, names, dates of birth, and places where things occurred...or were to occur...of the people who were mentioned in the surface text by literal and symbolic language. The very word pictures of the text are littered with hidden verifications of just who was being talked about. So one must be very careful about just what is really wrong in the Scriptures. Is there not a clear picture of what G-d wants of Israel, and how He planned to get it?For decades mainC ministers have dodged this issue by simply ignoring those passages which are problematic. Their congregations, used to just taking their word, reading without thinking (if they read at all) and depending on the pastor for their opinions and interpretations. I have long thought, and especially since studying from my JPS Study TNK, there are many authors whose compiled works make up many of the books of the Bible. The oral traditions of tribes go back for thousands of years prior to writing anything down. People these days have a tendency to lend little credence to what was orally kept by many men in each tribe...accurately, but simply told. It is only as the oral histories of mankind gets written down...guided by the Ruach, to Moses, who without doubt consulted those members that had the Oral History...that we begin to see a transition from the simplicity of what is being reported and memorized, to more and more detailed writing of current day events.For example, in Gen 1 and 2 there are two accounts of creation, and they differ slightly in their order of events. This creates a huge problem for those who think Moshe authored the entire  under the direct control of HaShem. On the other hand, if part of what he did was to compile source documents possibly written by men alive before the flood who had heard the story from Adam or his sons, then some minor variation would be expected. If you stop attempting to think of any part of the Scriptures...whoever wrote them down...as perfect in their rendering...that every word was placed just where it should be, even if it seems to cloud the picture for you, it becomes very easy. If Abba was working on the writings of men to make sure that there were verifiable codes implanted within the Scriptures, it was He who chose what got repeated...in a seemingly unnecessary way, in order to put the correct letters in the necessary sequences to provide the 3D verification of the Bible.
Abba was not concerned with the literary effect on us, nor did He obviously think we would not be able to understand all of what He meant us to hear...through the Ruach as we read the Scriptures. To me, the Scriptures are plain, and relatively easy to follow, once you get all of the pieces of the mosaic of informational bits in place. Once you have that first gestault of understanding, from that point onward, you continue to receive added layers of understanding that make even terse, or seemingly un-understandable language clear.
I am sure that the Scriptures are just what Abba required them to be...not perfect, as a dynamic system of religiousity might require, but sufficient for the task, not only on the surface, but in all the underlying ways we come to see deeper and deeper into Abba's intent.I can (and have) explained what I believe to be true about these discrepancies much better than ministers (plural) with Bachelors and Masters degrees. And let me tell you, I ain't nuthin' special! It's just the truth is a lot easier to tell than going through all the convolutions necessary to credit a lie. Trying to keep face for people that are long dead is a bit silly. I am sure that Moshe wrote a great deal of the down himself...and as he got older, traced and retraced, and explained things to Joshua, and no doubt Joshua did to whomever came after him. Moshe was given the full understanding of all the , and had to teach it to a people for over 40 years to get a simplistic version enculturated into the people who were called the Children of Abraham of what is currently called Judaism. What is in the Mishna and the Talmud are how it got done, and what people thought of what was done, and how they understand it. The Oral Law in Judaism is valid as a cultural tool, and as accurate as anything is that is written by men as they try patiently to get the Scriptures explained, and enforce a code of law that was unique to Israel. I do not follow the Oral Law because I am not a Jew, and the Mishna and the Talmud are not my history and cultural references...but they are none the less quite accurate, and valuable...even to me.
What was written in the Scriptures was fully accurate...just not the perfect, infallible Word of G-d. The Scriptures are exactly what YHVH wanted them to be. Is some information seemingly contradictory? Sure, until you are fully familiar with everything in the Scriptures...but there is always another scrap of Scripture waiting to be uncovered to explain the discrepancy someone thinks they have found.
Assessing the personalities, feelings and emotions of the authors of text, especially the prophets, can be a bit more problematic for me. Here is where I must put myself in their place before I read. What must the prophet Yeshayahu felt as he warned of the impending judgment on a corrupt nation? How might he have been comforted as his prophesies tried to comfort his people in their captivity? How would the intense political climate of the times and the region have effected him, and thus his writing style? Heck fire, I can't even imaging BEING a prophet, let alone how one felt! Being blessed/cursed with a few Words, dreams and visions, I can give you a bit of insight. Receiving Words from Abba is a lot different than seeing pictures, awake, or asleep. The words galvinize...you feel impelled to begin whatever is told you, and they stick with you...exactly as told you. There is plenty of time to write them down...if they are more than a few words! I can count the words given me on two hands...not exactly a verbose situation.
Understanding what is told you, or even what is shown you is a good deal different. I have never had a prophecy, that I know of, and I certainly was not told to tell anyone anything. One is written off as a fruitcake the second you do, so there has to be the impelling force of the prophecy given to get past one's natural reluctance to make an idiot of one's self. Yet those people I know that get Word's for their Pastor's, seem to get a full knowing and understanding of what they are to say, and what it means, but unless they are given the knowledge as a "thus sayeth the Lord", the information is easy to tell the person who is to receive them, again, once they get over the embaressment of having to say that they have information from Abba to pass on. So, knowing that the vocalized words from God are powerful, and memorable is a part of it...if one gets the full onslaught...words, and audio/video visions, as when John received information from Yehoshua...the words stick around, but the visions tend to blur over time. Apparantly this is why John was told to write things down as he received the visions. More to the point, how did YHVH feel about things ... why did He choose this man to relate not only the facts of the prophecy, but His own feelings as well? Much as I'd like to ignore this part, it is every bit as important if we're going to know the heart of God, not just the history of what He did. And how can I love anyone whose heart I do not know? YHVH, if you look at the scriptures, designates the time and placement of the Major Prophets. Look at Samuel...his mother begged to have a child, and then when she had him, she dedicated him to G-d. He was raised in the sanctuary, and began to receive the Word of G-d probably about the same time he was learning to read and write...five or six years old. He was molded, chosen, cast in the role he was to live in. Moses was the same. Saved by a guided abandonment...and one cannot forget that Miriam was a Prophetess. I am positive she knew what was to happen, just not why. Moshe, raised in the palace, and taught how to learn, and to observe, and to govern for a testing period of 40 years, then to live simply, and be a man, an ordinary shepherd, for another testing period of 40 years...and then, enlightened of G-d just before His mission...which lasted for another testing of 40 years. Moshe didn't do everything right, but we know he pleased G-d.
A Major Prophet is cultivated by G-d...it is not a simple interaction, with Abba saying to one man, here do this, and to another, do that, although I know Abba does that also. And because of the special mission the man or woman is chosen for, he/she receives a lot of attention, and with the burden of Prophecy, a great deal of emotional nourishment, so that the Prophet can stand up under the burden. Think how John the Beloved...who evidently had an unusual heart tie with Yehoshua, was held up through the the burden of the prophecies in Revelation? And Moshe, always having Abba to fall back on when he was again and again reminded of just how impossible his task as the leader, teacher, and prophet of Israel was.
Abba uses man to help man, but He never forgets how fragile we are, and how difficult it is for us to try to live in the real world and be in contact with the spiritual world.
As for how Abba loves us, think not so much of the history of what was done, but how it was done...look at the details of the contact between man and G-d. Think of Cain, having killed Abel, and yet receiving the protection of G-d despite his crime, and how gently G-d spoke to him when his initial sacrifice was not acceptable. And Abba showing His own fury to Moshe...was it to relieve His feelings? Hardly. Think more that whenever Abba was angry with Israel, how Moshe threw himself into the breach...was it not more that Abba was showing His own feelings to Moshe so that Moshe could know how fully Abba understood everything that Moshe did, and once Moshe felt understood, he then would intercede again for Israel.
One must also remember that Abba was working always within the Covenent He cut with Israel...always keeps His promises...for good, or for ill. People die in this life...it is part of the nature of the experience we are gaining. Whether one dies early, or lives painfully, is a part of what one's own choices bring, within the constant effects of other people's choices. Chastisement is always just enough, and those that die are already out of the continuously ongoing schoolroom we are in as humans. It is true that they may have failed in some things, but this is why Yehoshua has the judgement of all mankind...only G-d as man can truly be seen to judge man in justice and mercy. Those men that were against Moshe who died in the wilderness...they turned back from the covenant that bound them, and they received the curse of the Covenant. Abba keeps his word for good or ill, as He has shown, which is why we are so blessed in Yehoshua...we have His righteousness, not our own lack of it.
People often say that Moshe should have been let go into Israel, because he did so much for G-d. Moshe was God's tool to create a nation, and Moshe was aware of it...and didn't want it, not at the beginning, not ever. When Moshe struck the rock twice to get the water flowing, he acted in anger, and understood it rated some punishment, because no matter how angry or upset, or hurt Abba is by us, He never wrongs us...He is never less than just, less than merciful, or less than loving in what He does. And it is what Abba is trying to teach us...to love one another enough to be just, and merciful and loving...in our actions. We are allowed to feel and think what we feel and think as we learn and grown...but our actions have consequences.
Abba's heart is laid bare by what He does and says, not what He feels, or thinks. We know that He feels strongly, because we are made in His image...and what we are feeling, He too has felt...with us, and for us. We know that G-d is loving, merciful,and just, merely by looking to everything that He has done from Adam to Yehoshua. Look to the tracings of His actions in your life, and you will find His heart, and understand it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 17, 2014 0:01:08 GMT -8
I see no end of fascination just in the English from Greek, but in the English from Hebrew, I know there is yet more, because of the language meanings for each word...leading to alternate understandings of a verse that are valid, but also the original script meaning for each letter can affect the flow of information as well, and changing the intent...all in the Ruach's hand to give to us The Greek and Christian interpretations of scripture, besides being lacking or just wrong in some areas, is like watching a TV show in black and white, and with subtitles. A translation based on Hebrew hermeneutics and MJ understanding is like watching the same show in color and with sound, in your native tongue. Understanding the culture and how these spiritual things were developed and interpreted by the Hebrew writers is like being an on site observer, where the nuances of thought and the smells of the place are added; and most importantly you get to experience the emotions of those involved in these events. That is the kind of truth I want; the kind I pray for myself, my wife, Ruth and her husband, your friends and neighbors questor, and all of us here. I never pray for others to agree with me any more- I always pray for the truth for us all. In the total truth we find pure agreement with the indwelling of the Ruach, not our own "feelings." Dan C
Agreement is never difficult...but expectation, backed by trust that Abba will keep His promises? A harder nut to crack than agreement.Matthew 18:18-20 (CJB)
18 Yes! I tell you people that whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.
19 To repeat, I tell you that if two of you here on earth agree about anything people ask, it will be for them from my Father in heaven.
20 For wherever two or three are assembled in my name, I am there with them.”
John 15:9-16 (CJB)
9 “Just as my Father has loved me, I too have loved you; so stay in my love.
10 If you keep my commands, you will stay in my love — just as I have kept my Father’s commands and stay in his love.
11 I have said this to you so that my joy may be in you, and your joy be complete.
12 “This is my command: that you keep on loving each other just as I have loved you.
13 No one has greater love than a person who lays down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you.
15 I no longer call you slaves, because a slave doesn’t know what his master is about; but I have called you friends, because everything I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, I chose you; and I have commissioned you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last; so that whatever you ask from the Father in my name he may give you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 17, 2014 0:26:50 GMT -8
I'll be the first to tell you it is difficult to retrain ourselves to properly use these methods and not abuse them. I tend to lean more to the factual and discredit the emotional. Others rely almost solely on their emotions. Either one is wrong. So let's talk about post #2 here- the one that talks about how we look at scripture. I personally have no problem with the idea that "every word" is not "God breathed." If, as mainC teaches, every word in scripture is given by God, and the Bible is infallible, totally accurate (since God doesn't make errors); then we have a problem. For decades mainC ministers have dodged this issue by simply ignoring those passages which are problematic. Their congregations, used to just taking their word, reading without thinking (if they read at all) and depending on the pastor for their opinions and interpretations. I have long thought, and especially since studying from my JPS Study TNK, there are many authors whose compiled works make up many of the books of the Bible. For example, in Gen 1 and 2 there are two accounts of creation, and they differ slightly in their order of events. This creates a huge problem for those who think Moshe authored the entire under the direct control of HaShem. On the other hand, if part of what he did was to compile source documents possibly written by men alive before the flood who had heard the story from Adam or his sons, then some minor variation would be expected. I can (and have) explained what I believe to be true about these discrepancies much better than ministers (plural) with Bachelors and Masters degrees. And let me tell you, I ain't nuthin' special! It's just the truth is a lot easier to tell than going through all the convolutions necessary to credit a lie. Assessing the personalities, feelings and emotions of the authors of text, especially the prophets, can be a bit more problematic for me. Here is where I must put myself in their place before I read. What must the prophet Yeshayahu felt as he warned of the impending judgment on a corrupt nation? How might he have been comforted as his prophesies tried to comfort his people in their captivity? How would the intense political climate of the times and the region have effected him, and thus his writing style? Heck fire, I can't even imaging BEING a prophet, let alone how one felt! More to the point, how did YHVH feel about things ... why did He choose this man to relate not only the facts of the prophecy, but His own feelings as well? Much as I'd like to ignore this part, it is every bit as important if we're going to know the heart of God, not just the history of what He did. And how can I love anyone whose heart I do not know? Just some thoughts to get us started. Dan C I wondered how some of ya'll were getting these self quotes, devoid of any new information. ProBoards is going nuts- I was going thru and cleanin' up some of my posts and lo-n'-be'hold it did this instead of just entering my changes ... |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 17, 2014 1:16:56 GMT -8
OK, I was recently asked a question about whether there would be a new Garden of Eden in the New Jerusalem, because the Tree of Life would be there. So I TRIED to use what I've learned here to answer. I'll put up my reply and you can pick it apart: The Scriptures
The Garden of Eden
Gen 2: 8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. 14 And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
A Lament over the King of Tyre
Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire,emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
Pharaoh to Be Slain
Ezekiel 31:1 In the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: "Whom are you like in your greatness? 3 Behold, Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches and forest shade, and of towering height, its top among the clouds. 4 The waters nourished it; the deep made it grow tall, making its rivers flow around the place of its planting, sending forth its streams to all the trees of the field. 5 So it towered high above all the trees of the field; its boughs grew large and its branches long from abundant water in its shoots. 6 All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; under its branches all the beasts of the field gave birth to their young, and under its shadow lived all great nations. 7 It was beautiful in its greatness, in the length of its branches; for its roots went down to abundant waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor the fir trees equal its boughs; neither were the plane trees like its branches; no tree in the garden of God was its equal in beauty. 9 I made it beautiful in the mass of its branches, and all the trees of Eden envied it, that were in the garden of God. 10 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because it towered high and set its top among the clouds, and its heart was proud of its height, 11 I will give it into the hand of a mighty one of the nations. He shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out.
Rev 2: 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
G3857 παράδεισος paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.
Note: it is an Eden, not the Eden
The River of Life
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.My D'rash
This is going to be a bit of a stretch for me, but I’ll try. Using g’zerah shavah (equivocal expressions) and banyan av mish’nei kethuvim (making a family from two or more texts) I can apply parallel development to these texts and come to an understanding. Simply put, they use similar language however clearly refer to different events and times in history. The similar language and references to particular things found in all these places and times means that they are connected in the spiritual realm. So we have a d’rash, a spiritual association which transcends time and location. In fact, the passage from Eze 28 also ties in the spiritual rulership of ha satan and his fall in the heavens.
In the Garden, God gave Adam dominion; he ruled over, cared for and was responsible to God for all that was in the Garden. In the same way a king is responsible to God for all God has given him dominion over. When Adam did evil in the sight of the Lord, he was removed from the Garden. Likewise, kings who do evil and do not repent are removed. The gold and the stones representing the wealth God granted Adam and these kings, as well as the leisure and pleasures of the gardens of each tie them allegorically together. Even ha satan enjoyed similar fellowship, perquisites and power until his sin of pride- which could be called the sin of kings.
Pastor Ed Cole says there is a spiritual principle: “Take the gold, but leave the glory.” The glory belongs to God. Adam, Pharaoh and the King of Tyre and ha satan all in their way tried to take what was God’s, and all were cast out of their respective gardens. However one day there will come a kingdom ruled by a king who cannot userp God, because He IS God! The Tree of Life and the river is the tie back to Eden. This is the restoration of our perfect fellowship with God, just as in the Garden. However I don’t see a new Garden of Eden here. Rather a more righteous king, a more perfect world and a more splendid city if we read contextually. The revelation of the river and the Tree of Life is a continuation and part of the previous chapter speaking of the New Jerusalem. It is not a New Eden, unless you want to speak of it allegorically like that.
So to answer the question, God gave the Garden of Eden to Adam to rule over it, however it was ultimately still God’s garden. Adam was put there to “work it and keep it.” There were also rules, one in particular- that he was not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Like Adam, God gives all rulers dominion, but He requires of them an accounting. And like Adam, they can be removed at God’s pleasure for their disobedience. But we look forward to a time when the Second Adam will rule and we'll have perfect fellowship, led by a perfect King!Using these rules is not that easy, so feel free to comment- even criticize. Can't learn anything from nice people, so go ahead. Dan (maybe a little trepidatious, but still somewhat intrepid!) C
I don't think Ezekial 31:1 fits with your other source passages...this seems to be a non-Edenic Garden, and just the regular trees in G-d's garden (the world). However, it does fit in with your line of thought regarding kingship, which drives your conclusion, so I understand the use of it. How many source passages do you need for a d'rash?
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 17, 2014 4:13:44 GMT -8
Agreement is never difficult...but expectation, backed by trust that Abba will keep His promises? A harder nut to crack than agreement.
Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 17, 2014 4:16:29 GMT -8
Edit: I wondered how some of ya'll were getting these self quotes, devoid of any new information. ProBoards is going nuts- I was going thru and cleanin' up some of my posts and lo-n'-be'hold it did this instead of just entering my changes ...
Dan  C
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 17, 2014 4:39:58 GMT -8
I don't have enough knowledge of making a d'rash to criticize...and since you make sense, I'm not going to say you are wrong in your reasoning.However, for parallel development, does one need three lines of reference to Eden? The Tree of Life refers to Adam, The River of Life to G-d/Yehoshua/Ruach, and Gold to the Adversary? Not that I even know what parallel development is...except that it's parallel, which to me connates to two lines of thought/circumstance, not three. Still, three lines of development can be parallel in nature...again, not enough knowledge to understand your reasoning, and the usage of so many elements.
I don't think Ezekial 31:1 fits with your other source passages...this seems to be a non-Edenic Garden, and just the regular trees in G-d's garden (the world). However, it does fit in with your line of thought regarding kingship, which drives your conclusion, so I understand the use of it. How many source passages do you need for a d'rash?
The passage in Ezekial went much farther than vs. 1. The analogy is admittedly a bit thin until you get to vss. 8 & 9, where it actually mentions the Garden of Eden. Then, with that direct tie it becomes one of the strongest explanations of the idea behind this d'rash- that even kings and rulers in the angelic realm are accountable to God for what He entrusts them with. I could have made this a much more powerful statement by using the principal of K'lal Uf'rat and saying "If God holds kings, angels and our 1st ancestor to account, then He will surely hold us to account and as quickly remove or discipline us for our unfaithfulness. But I didn't want to show off ... 
I highly recommend getting a copy of "Hidden Treasures" by Joseph Shulam. It's not very expensive, and not a very large book to read. But it is packed solid with solid information. More than worth the price.
Dan C
Edit: well, actually I was answering the question about whether there would be a second Garden of Eden at the time (and place) of the New Jerusalem ... but this seemed to just make a pretty powerful d'rash on personal responsibility towards God. The person who asked seems to have a natural flare for making a d'rash, as she quoted all but the 1st scripture in the question.
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 17, 2014 16:27:36 GMT -8
I don't have enough knowledge of making a d'rash to criticize...and since you make sense, I'm not going to say you are wrong in your reasoning.However, for parallel development, does one need three lines of reference to Eden? The Tree of Life refers to Adam, The River of Life to G-d/Yehoshua/Ruach, and Gold to the Adversary? Not that I even know what parallel development is...except that it's parallel, which to me connates to two lines of thought/circumstance, not three. Still, three lines of development can be parallel in nature...again, not enough knowledge to understand your reasoning, and the usage of so many elements.
I don't think Ezekial 31:1 fits with your other source passages...this seems to be a non-Edenic Garden, and just the regular trees in G-d's garden (the world). However, it does fit in with your line of thought regarding kingship, which drives your conclusion, so I understand the use of it. How many source passages do you need for a d'rash?
No, you don't need three lines. But you can use as many as you find, just so long as they are parallel. And the number of source passages is up to you, as long as they all adhere to principles of proper hermeneutical interpretation. Actually, parallel development is a westernized concept. But it is a very strong persuasive tool which fits nicely into the idea of a d'rash. The passage in Ezekial went much farther than vs. 1. The analogy is admittedly a bit thin until you get to vss. 8 & 9, where it actually mentions the Garden of Eden. Then, with that direct tie it becomes one of the strongest explanations of the idea behind this d'rash- that even kings and rulers in the angelic realm are accountable to God for what He entrusts them with. I could have made this a much more powerful statement by using the principal of K'lal Uf'rat and saying "If God holds kings, angels and our 1st ancestor to account, then He will surely hold us to account and as quickly remove or discipline us for our unfaithfulness. But I didn't want to show off ... I highly recommend getting a copy of "Hidden Treasures" by Joseph Shulam. It's not very expensive, and not a very large book to read. But it is packed solid with solid information. More than worth the price. Dan C Edit: well, actually I was answering the question about whether there would be a second Garden of Eden at the time (and place) of the New Jerusalem ... but this seemed to just make a pretty powerful d'rash on personal responsibility towards God. The person who asked seems to have a natural flare for making a d'rash, as she quoted all but the 1st scripture in the question. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Apr 7, 2015 3:03:16 GMT -8
Moderator Note- I am combining David Ben Yosef's excellent treatise on this topic with this thread so that both can be revived, as this is important to understanding our faith. Also it helps clean up the forum and keep things organized. I'm moving David's because his is concise and well written, and hopefully will now (along with mine) generate discussion.
His are now the first two posts.
Dan C
|
|
- there are 70 faces to 
C
