My "I found out I was wrong" Thread

[Questor]

Jun 17, 2014 16:13:57 GMT -8 alon said:

When I first came on here, I gave short shrift to writings like the Talmud and the Apocrypha. However due to my ongoing studies and my studies with Rabbi S., I now recognize these and other writings to be very important forms of documentation. In fact, there are many Deuterocannonical (Secondary Cannon) books which are recognized by other denominations and/or sects, and which almost made it into our own cannon. While some had ideas that conflicted with other Scripture, others were simply regarded as redundant by the various organizers of our Bible. Odd they'd take that stance since there are several synoptic books in both the TNK and the B'rit Chadasha in the cannon they did aprove.

I still don't give any of these books the same status as Scripture (as in our own cannon), however I do now recognize them as important for historical and cultural context, good for supplementary instruction in many cases, and in others better and more reliable commentary than our mainC commentators whose writings form the opinions taught in seminaries worldwide. Most, if not all the teachings of Yeshua can be traced straight back to the Mishna! And I had a talk with an ex-RC priest where I asked him about the notable faith of many adherents to that religion. It comes primarily from the study of 1st & 2nd Maccabees!

So I've changed my opinion of secondary texts over the last couple of years, and I'm sure it is reflected in my posts here.

Dan C

The first Epistle of Clement to the Church at Corinth is well worth a read...it appears to have been written before the Temple was destroyed, and mentions that the Notsrim were still making sacrifices at the time in Jerusalem. If read for the underlying indications of being Obedient to G-d, you find a lot of teaching to obey the commandments and ordinances of G-d, while seeming to state that other people and writings can be misleading, and lead one into unnecessary disputes.

I was, however, somewhat distressed to find in Michael L. Rodkinson's history of the Talmud that the writings of the 'Jewish Christians' were deliberately omitted from the Palestinian and Babylonian Talmuds, even though they were an extensive source of spiritual commentary within the Pharisaical schools, while each succeeding generation of Babylonian scholars tossed out or kept only those writings of Palestine in particular that fit with their personal theology and preferences in the Babylonian Colleges of study.  There evidently was so much conflicting information in all the writings, that much of the Palestinian scholars' work was tossed out, and openly discarded, as were each of the opposing Colleges tending to do the same thing to each other's work within the Babylonian Talmud.

I value both the Deuterocannonical works and the Talmud as each applies to the scriptures as the commentaries that they are on carrying out the Commandments and Ordinances in the Tanakh.

When they get into theological flights of fancy I start wondering whose koolaid they are drinking.

[alon]

Oct 11, 2014 18:29:47 GMT -8 Questor said:

I've always wondered where the Israelites got any of the supplies for the making of the Tabernacle...the red and purple dyes were also expensive and hard to come by. Still, if they had a bunch of sheep, presumably, they had a lot of wool to sell. I simply wonder who they were trading with...the Midians/Nabateans? [/quote]

Can't think right now where, but they apparently did pass through lands of other nations while on their extended road trip. Weren't they commanded not to stray from the path and to deal fairly with these nations? Even in the desert they probably met caravans ... who knows ... but I'm with Rav on this one- just don't see them crushing sea snail's and collecting minute ammounts of ink. Maybe if they were French Jews, but nu ...

Dan C

[Questor]

Oct 11, 2014 18:29:47 GMT -8 Questor said:

Oct 2, 2014 21:10:00 GMT -8 alon said:

I am in the process of retying all my tzitzyot using white and blue wool yarn. Tekhelet is blue in Hebrew. The Talmud says that this color came from the chilazon. Some say this is a sea snail because it says so in the newer parts of the Talmud. Problem is sea snails aren’t kosher. This is where we part company with Rabbinical Messianics and Orthodox Jews. They hold Talmud to be equal or even greater than . We can learn a lot from Talmud, but it isn’t .

dictates that nothing treif comes into the presence of G-d. Anything not kosher renders ritual items unclean. Furthermore if the Hebrews could have found enough snails (which are fairly rare) in the wilderness to dye their tzitzyot AND the Temple hangings, it isn’t likely they could have extracted the dye as it is a pretty involved process even today. So why are there people pushing this idea? For money! These snails are not abundant, and it is a difficult process in collecting this ink. So they can charge for it, and it is mostly us Meshiachim who are defrauded by it. Almost all mainstream Jews still wear white tzitzyot, as their Rabbis have not bought into this.

I just wish I’d heard Rabbi S teach on this BEFORE I went out and bought all those snail-strings!

Dan C

I've always wondered where the Israelites got any of the supplies for the making of the Tabernacle...the red and purple dyes were also expensive and hard to come by. Still, if they had a bunch of sheep, presumably, they had a lot of wool to sell. I simply wonder who they were trading with...the Midians/Nabateans?

[Questor]

Oct 11, 2014 19:39:08 GMT -8 alon said:

Oct 11, 2014 18:29:47 GMT -8 Questor said:

I've always wondered where the Israelites got any of the supplies for the making of the Tabernacle...the red and purple dyes were also expensive and hard to come by. Still, if they had a bunch of sheep, presumably, they had a lot of wool to sell. I simply wonder who they were trading with...the Midians/Nabateans?

Can't think right now where, but they apparently did pass through lands of other nations while on their extended road trip. Weren't they commanded not to stray from the path and to deal fairly with these nations? Even in the desert they probably met caravans ... who knows ... but I'm with Rav on this one- just don't see them crushing sea snail's and collecting minute amounts of ink. Maybe if they were French Jews, but nu ...

Dan C
[/quote]


Not even fanciers of GARDEN snails would eat a sea snail, though I wonder at the people who would eat a snail (or slug) at all. Still, to be hospitable, if someone wants either they can visit my greenhouse....

[alon]

I've greatly softened on what I expect of a Messianic Rabbi (see thread):

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3543/cut-rabbi-slack

There is a huge need for men to take leadership roles in teaching congregations and small groups of Messianic believers. It is foolish to continue to demand the high level of training and knowledge required of Jewish congregations. We need to allow them to learn and grow with us- though yes, it might be good if they knew more than we do!

Dan C

[alon]

It is easy to lump all Palestinians, Arabs, Egyptians, Pakistanis, etc. into groups who are Muslim and therefore believe in an evil god, the demon allah. However Rav S pointed out to me that there are believers in each of these groups. For example, raised in Israel, mostly in Jerusalem, he had several Palestinian friends who were believers. So we can condemn Islam and everyone who practices it. However to condemn any ethnicity as totally evil is wrong, and we should watch that we do not do that. "We" meaning "ME".

Dan C

[alon]

Put this one in the "now I'm not sure" column. The Rabbi talked about this on Shabbat. He doesn't think that Adam was created androgynous; that is with both male and female characteristics. I believe he was.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

If both were created in the Immagio Dio, then we can infer God has the characteristics of both. And indeed, the role of the Ruach HaQodesh is essentially the same as the role of women; supporter, comforter, helper, etc. This leads me to conclude that Adam had these characteristics until God took them from him and made woman.

Rabbi thinks Adam was always completely masculine because:

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed ("atzer") man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

This passage uses the masculine tense.

There is also a difference in how they were created; in the above vs. it says Adam was formed.

Gen 2:22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

The term here is "binah":

H1129 בּנה bânâh baw-naw' A primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively): - (begin to) build (-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely.

Men still have their focus on "atzer"; we are purpose driven. Women's focus is on "binah"; works of art, the home, family, relationships. The term "help meet" from Gen 2:18 also implies power, aid and support, potent interventions. Together man and wife can be a force to be reckoned with.

I guess neither argument is definitive, and in the grande scheme of things it isn't the most important doctrinal difference. So if I have to disagree with the Rabbi, I suppose this is a benign type of difference in opinion.

Dan C

edit: just to update, I now believe firmly that Adam was created androgynous, with all the qualities of God (both masculine and feminine) reflected in his corporeal being. Chavah was formed by removing the feminine qualities and making not one, but two new people. In this view it supports biblical principles where men and women are equal, but Adam being made first it is men who are the head of the family unit.  

[Elizabeth]

Hmm, hadn't considered the perspective you shared.  I always just assumed he was mad a man.  Interesting.

In Genesis 2:18  G-d says," It is not good that man should be alone, I will make him a helper fit for him." 

Maybe that indicates his need for a helper that had the feminine qualities of binah you described.  I have always read this verse to imply a something lacking on his part.  I always assumed it was companionship, but maybe it is describing a need for more of the characteristics you described. 

I guess it depends on what we understand being made in the image of G-d means. I am not sure, but I think the fact that he talks about making both man and woman in his image is relevant.  Perhaps, verse 1:27 could read more like he is referring to mankind.  The use of the singular and plural is really intriguing in that verse.

[alon]

Doing a study in Exodus, and in Ex 15:2 I find this; "My strength and song is JAH, And He is become my salvation: This [is] my God, and I glorify Him; God of my father, and I exalt Him." (YLT)

Ex 15:2 (OJB) Hashem is my oz and zimrah (song of praise), and He is become to me Yeshuah (salvation); He is Eli (my G-d), and I will praise Him; Elohei Avi, and I will exalt Him.

Ex 15:2 (KJV) The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation ; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

H5115 נוה nâvâh naw-vaw' A primitive root; to rest (as at home); causatively (through the implied idea of beauty (compare H5116)), to celebrate (with praises): - keep at home, prepare an habitation.

According to my Study TNK, it also carries the connotation to beautify Him. From this a midrash, taking the meaning to be to show His beauty, says we are to beautify the things we use for worship of Elohim: the sukkah, tallit, scroll and shofar.

I've always kept my tallit, kippah and shofar pretty plain in order not to become proud of these things. Kind of an insecurity because I'm not Jewish by birth, and a Baptist keep it plain kind of mentality. Maybe I need to loosen up a little though. Celebrate the beauty of life in Yeshua.

Dan C

[alon]

_*sigh*, back to the top ...

I am coming to agree with Rav S that when witnessing we should use the entire Bible, not just a "New Testament." It starts the prospective proselyte out with the idea that the entire Bible is valid, no part being more important but the older writings being senior to the newer. As Messianics we should stress this any time we speak of scripture. It should be ingrained into our belief system so deeply this is our default position on everything.

There is also the good possibility that they have heard the plan of salvation from just the New Testament at least once before. Using the whole Bible may be a novel enough approach that they will pay more heed to it.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
** The "all scripture" that rav Sha'ul was reffering to was the TNK, as there was no B'rit Chadasha at the time this was written.

I suppose I should just agree with Rav S right from the start and save myself the angst. But honestly, I doubt he'd like that, and I sure ain't made that way, so ...

Dan C

[alon]

Dec 31, 1969 16:00:00 GMT -8 Miykhael said:

by R. Michael J. Broyde- Michael Broyde is a law professor at Emory University, was the founding rabbi of the Young Israel in Atlanta and is a dayan in the Beth Din of America.

But since any woman is permitted to perform even those commandments that the does not obligate her to perform, and these women do a mitzvah and are rewarded for performing these commandments. And according to Tosfot’s view they are also told to recite the blessings on these commandments — and in accordance with our custom that they perform the commandments of [hearing the] shofar and [waving the] lulav and recite blessings [on these performances]. If so, with respect to tzitzit as well, it is possible for a woman who wishes to fulfill this mitzvah to wear a clothing item that is distinct from the one typically worn by men but which has four corners and for her to attach tzitzit to it and thereby fulfill this commandment.

OK, I’ve read before that women may perform the positive mitzvoth if she so wishes to commit to doing them. So wearing a tallit, tallit ketan, or other garments with four corners and placing tzitziyot on these garments should be permitted to them. However there is also the scriptural proscription:

Devarim 22:5 (OJB) The isha shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a gever (man) neither shall a gever put on simlat isha (garment of a woman); for all that do so are to’avat unto Hashem Eloheicha.

A man's item shall not be on a woman, and a man shall not wear a woman's garment; whoever does such a thing is an abhorrence unto Adonai. — Deuteronomy 22:5

So my thinking on this (for what it is worth) is that women should wear tzitzit if they wish to keep the commandment. However the article went on to talk about the heart condition and motivation of those women who wish to keep this mitzvah. I think a woman who truly wishes to keep this for the sake of the mitzvah will want to be mindful of scripture and wear only garments or items which cannot be mistaken as men’s. Women’s fashions actually would make it easier for them to keep this mitzvah as they are allowed much more leeway by societal norms than men.

So I have adjusted my attitude somewhat on this. Of course, I'll never make halacha, but still my previous thinking needed tweaking, so here it is in this thread ...

It's all a process!

Dan C

[alon]

Jun 21, 2014 16:59:52 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 21, 2014 15:21:11 GMT -8 Questor said:

..., you must distinguish between the churches and the Believers. The Believers that know Yehoshua have a relationship with Him, and walk with the Ruach residing in them, and it is the Ruach that teaches them, and draws them to knowledge and obedience.

There are many who are saved in mainC. However their doctrines make it so easy to fall away and still think you are OK. Worse yet, by many prominent mainC pastors and church leaders own reckoning as many of half the people filling pews every Sunday are unsaved! They never had a true salvation experience in the first place!

As you know, I have no fellowship I can meet with, but I have fellow Believers in Yehoshua that keep seeking out more knowledge of what G-d wants of them, and I fellowship very well with them. We talk a lot of G-d together, and learn from one another, and are upheld in our trust in Yehoshua by each other. And when time and inclination allows, they stop in at their churches on an occasional Sunday, and find less and less there. And they turn to preachers on radio and the internet that are teaching end times, and teaching obedience...even if they are not teaching all of the directly.

I am pretty far away from the nearest synagogue here as well. I was going to make the rtip today, but came under serious attack and didn't make it. Would have been only the second time at a regular Shabbath service there. So I know what you mean. It is frustrating. And as you know I too fellowship with an AoG church here regularly. In fact, I'd say I'm in the top 10% of the faithful there, which is pretty good because that church has a lot of believers who show the fruits of the Spirit in a huge way! But their doctrines are wrong on far too many accounts. And they are guilty of not stressing repentance and obedience enough when dealing with salvation. In fact, I got into a pretty serious argument with one of their senior members over the issue of the importance of repentance. So while I may go there for the fellowship and for some training and edification, I ALWAYS use a lot of discernment; and I do not take communion because they use crackers which have leaven in them- just one example of how you have to watch yourself when with Christian churches.

Those people that are teaching G-d to those under their leadership teach through the lens of Pauline Christianity, on how to be a Believer, and to do what the Ruach wants you to do. The Brit Chadashah is full of examples of how to live in obedience, even if they are not living in a Jewish manner, and the effective Preachers out there are teaching more than just Grace. They teach how to walk an obedient life in a non-Jewish context. They take advantage of the Grace that G-d has given them in Yehoshua, and teach their listeners how live in the world we live in, and yet become like Yehoshua, even if they do not do all that Yehoshua did as a Jew.

But they do not walk as Yeshua walked! He was a observant Jew. They see Him as a contemporary Gentile who is more than happy to sit with them as they twist, convolute, distort and lie about the words of Paul so they can go and do whatever they please. This is nothing more than good pagan hermeneutics, as I explained in another thread. You can make a text say whatever you want, there are no absolutes.

They teach humility, patience, endurance, and kindliness.

But they pervert these concepts beyond recognition. People like one recent poster here with a perverse doctrine of love did not happen in a vacuum. It's what is taught in many, to some degree even most mainC churches today.

They teach how to avoid sin as they are aware of it...

Sin is not what they are aware of in their pagan mentality. It is what God said it is. But since we are here, whenever witnessing about Natsar to a CHristian, there is invariably an "oh crap!" moment where they start to understand that you are taking away their excuse before God. Most get angry with you at that point. Their problem is they never had an excuse before God, only in the dark corners of their mind where humans tend to think we can fool God by not looking hard at what He gave us, His Word.

They avoid teaching as , and teach it as Yehoshua-ness...as Christian behavior...a certain way of living and walking, that if followed, is covering a great deal of where it does not delineate becoming a good Jew living in Israel during Temple times. They are set on finding a way to love G-d with all their mind, heart, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves, but they have no need to become Jewish, and therefore decline it. And because they bear fruit in Yehoshua, they are not interested in the Mosaic Covenant except as the supporting mandate for how they believe, and tend to spend as much time in the Tanakh as they do in the Brit Chadashah. They have their own traditions and rituals that are not pagan...just not Jewish, and because of being Gentile, and under Grace, they see their imperfect walk, and rest in Yehoshua. They do not want to be adopted into a way of life that is not theirs, nor can anyone say that they must become a Jew, and follow all of , in order to be saved. And since a great deal of the is cultural and temple rules, they are not wrong.

Actually every aspect of their worship, their walk and their observances is rooted in paganism. From their steeples and crosses, their pulpits, their Easter Sunrise services (not to mention Easter itself), every inch and every space on a Christmas tree and a wreath ... we could go on and on. They spiritualize these things and say it is OK because they do it for God. But if we want to do our worship, our feasts, our walk and our halacha for God, then we need to do it as He said, not some pagan pope who never had ANY traceable connection to the early believers or to God.

They don't even keep the few laws they do accept. Very few of them keep "the Lord's Day" holy, even by mainC standards. Many, many of them worship the Cross as an idol. And other than a beach or public pool, the best place to go lust on women is the Sanctuary on Sunday.

I believe that they need to keep the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath on Saturday, and to keep the moedim, but they are not taught this, because of the minimum requirements laid down by the Jerusalem Council. I think they should keep kashrut...and some do. I think they need to be in constant thanksgiving for all that G-d has given them...and most are. I am not a fruit inspector, but those Believers that I keep company with give evidence of good fruit, and that they are one with Yehoshua, and therefore with me, and with you.

As I said, there are many who show evidence of being saved in mainC churches like the one I fellowship with. But too many are sped happily down that wide path to destruction by their doctrines too.

And that thing about not being a fruit inspector- it is a perfect example of how false doctrine is so ingrained into us, it is hard to shake off even after we leave.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (ESV) For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

John 7:24 (ESV)"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

You are told to judge those who profess belief in Yeshua! Otherwise how could you discern who to fellowship with and who not? This is especially true in a movement like Messianism where the enemy is so active in sending false teachers, disruptors, and outright demoniacs into our midst!

And slowly, but surely, they are coming out of the churches, and the pagan traditions. They will never be Jewish, but they walk with G-d.

They need to hurry tings up a bit; I'm gettin' lonesome here!

Those that say they are Christians, but do not know Yehoshua, for all of their pretense of being Christian by virtue of their membership in one of the MainC churches, and their mild adherence to Noahide Laws are simply not members of the New Covenant.

Those that say they are Jewish, and attend Synagogues that follow teach and follow , but deny Yehoshua are simply not members of the New Covenant either, and need to leave some of the Mishna and Talmud behind just as much as the MainC churches need to leave paganism behind.

Judging who I will fellowship with, or who I might need to counsel or witness to is one thing. I do not as a rule judge anyone's salvation- that is between them and God, and frankly I do not know where that line of demarcation is regarding saved/unsaved status. My only judgment is whether, when and how to talk to someone about Yeshua and/or observance. I "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." (2 Tim 4:2) ... except I admit I do have some problems with that "patience" part !

Dan C

[alon]

Am about to go over to the AoG with my wife, and was thinking about how my view of God has changed. I used to be a strong Trinitarian: Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three distinct persons forming a Godhead. Now, I don't claim to know all there is about God, or even to fully understand about what He's told us. But when I recite the Sh'ma, I believe it to be true; God is One:

Devarim 6:4 Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad.

He has at different times chose to manifest Himself to man in different ways: a burning bush, a column of fire and smoke, a brazier passing between split carcasses; and in human form as with the messenger who visited Avram; He focused His essence on the Mercy seat in the Mishkan and in the Tabernacle; and finally inhabiting a human form from conception to death and beyond as Yeshua HaMoshiach. I believe He is an infinite God who can concentrate His essence anywhere and however He wishes, yet still the universe cannot contain Him.

Just my understanding.

Dan C

[Miykhael]

Feb 15, 2015 10:27:48 GMT -8 alon said:

He has at different times chose to manifest Himself to man in different ways: a burning bush, a column of fire and smoke, a brazier passing between split carcasses; and in human form as with the messenger who visited Avram; He focused His essence on the Mercy seat in the Mishkan and in the Tabernacle; and finally inhabiting a human form from conception to death and beyond as Yeshua HaMoshiach. I believe He is an infinite God who can concentrate His essence anywhere and however He wishes, yet still the universe cannot contain Him.

Dan C

B”H

Maybe these verses may help?
Maybe read the whole chapter, but this is what we read in Hebrews 1:1 In days gone by, G-d spoke in many and varied ways to the Fathers through the prophets. But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe. This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of G-d’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.

[Elizabeth]

I am glad you brought this up. I will share my current and different point of view.  This is such a mysterious and dogma-ridden subject that it makes me nervous.  I worry about getting pulled back into old ways of thinking, but I have found myself feeling close to G-d with my current thinking.

I relate to G-d as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . . (take a breath, and hear me out)     

I don't think I was actually relating to Him at all through the trinity idea prior to becoming Messianic. It was actually a huge obstacle and how I began to question Christianity.  I feel I have gained more from this concept as a Messianic. I feel like this is what G-d gives me to understand of Himself that allows Him to relate to me on my level. I don't think it's about me understanding G-d. I think it's about Him understanding me. He knows how He made me, and He knows how to help me.

I often contemplate all the healing miracles of Yeshua touching or being touched. Of all the options G-d has to heal us, He chose to touch us. I tell my kids that G-d gave us Yeshua because he knows we need feet to touch, hands to hold, and eyes to look into.  That's simply how He made us.  Yeshua helps us feel understood, seen, wanted, and loved by G-d.  I feel like Yeshua is G-d's way of speaking to us and loving us on our level.  He didn't just do the will of G-d.  He is the will of G-d in the form of a person.  Why the form of a person? Because G-d is gracious, wise, wants to exist with us, and we are persons.

As Yeshua said The Spirit is our helper. I feel He is how G-d unites me with other believers, convicts me, shows me His strength, and keeps me close to Him. The Spirit is how I "see" G-d today. We don't have a pillar of fire, clouds, or Yeshua to watch today. I feel like the Spirit serves this purpose in our current state.  I feel like The Spirit is simply G-d's way of showing us how to follow Him according to where we are today.

G-d the Father is where I begin loosing grasp and understanding, but then that takes me right back to why He gave me Himself as Yeshua and The Spirit. This is also where I find the most humility and gratitude, but the humility and gratitude is always rooted in and directed back to His Son and His Spirit.

I don't even try to approach G-d with logic, so am completely comfortable not being able to grasp the totality of G-d and His mysteries.  However, in prayer and worship, I cannot separate Father, Son and Spirit.  Yet, I rely on each of them individually to express myself to G-d.  The process is actually very unifying, and somehow quite singular.  I always had the image of a triangle as a Christian, but as a Messianic is has become more like a circle that keeps moving me forward.  I gain greater appreciation and awe for who G-d is and what He has done for me as one directs me to the other. I don't believe Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct pieces of a bigger whole. I believe they are the whole, but expressed on my level and in a way I can handle. They help me grapple with the whole.