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Post by alon on Apr 14, 2014 1:19:56 GMT -8
After sitting under some very good Messianic teaching by Rabbi S, and since I still attend an AoG church with my wife, I am more and more being faced with an odd dilemma. The pastor at the AoG church does a very credible job, researching his sermons very well. And as much as any mainstream church can he preaches the "whole truth". But he does make errors. My dilemma is when do I point out these errors, and to who?
Sometimes it is obvious, like when they use crackers for communion- a very common mainC mistake. I took the pastor aside and pointed out that crackers have leaven, and the juice is a substitute for the blood of Yeshua. We are commanded in Exo 23:18a "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread;" therefore this practice is specifically prohibited. Then I let the matter rest.
Others, like today, he made the very common mistake of calling Mordechai Ester's uncle. She was in fact his cousin. Pointing this out would have been nit-picking, and showing off my own "knowledge"; which was not really mine but the rabbi's in the first place. It is difficult, especially for a self important type like myself to do, but I just have to bite my tongue and say "good sermon"- which it was.
Other times it is not so easy to tell. I have been at loggerheads with a faction in the AoG church which wants to downplay the role of repentance in salvation in favor of a feel-good religion. They say saying "yes" is the same as repentance. It's a fine point, but one I think is important.
It's easy to point out the errors in their thinking. But sometimes discerning the errors in my own judgment can be difficult to do, especially when my flesh gets in the way. And I've been known to argue vehemently just so I can "win". Sometimes the more difficult, but right thing to do is to convince rather than marking off another win for me. Not much of a painter, I tend to just tip the bucket on their heads and move on to the next point. Tact- that's the stuff in the locker next to the horses stall, right?
Dan (blunt, but not always dull) C
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Post by Questor on Apr 19, 2014 21:55:19 GMT -8
After sitting under some very good Messianic teaching by Rabbi S, and since I still attend an AoG church with my wife, I am more and more being faced with an odd dilemma. The pastor at the AoG church does a very credible job, researching his sermons very well. And as much as any mainstream church can he preaches the "whole truth". But he does make errors. My dilemma is when do I point out these errors, and to who? Sometimes it is obvious, like when they use crackers for communion- a very common mainC mistake. I took the pastor aside and pointed out that crackers have leaven, and the juice is a substitute for the blood of Yeshua. We are commanded in Exo 23:18a "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread;" therefore this practice is specifically prohibited. Then I let the matter rest. Others, like today, he made the very common mistake of calling Mordechai Ester's uncle. She was in fact his cousin. Pointing this out would have been nit-picking, and showing off my own "knowledge"; which was not really mine but the rabbi's in the first place. It is difficult, especially for a self important type like myself to do, but I just have to bite my tongue and say "good sermon"- which it was. Other times it is not so easy to tell. I have been at loggerheads with a faction in the AoG church which wants to downplay the role of repentance in salvation in favor of a feel-good religion. They say saying "yes" is the same as repentance. It's a fine point, but one I think is important. It's easy to point out the errors in their thinking. But sometimes discerning the errors in my own judgment can be difficult to do, especially when my flesh gets in the way. And I've been known to argue vehemently just so I can "win". Sometimes the more difficult, but right thing to do is to convince rather than marking off another win for me. Not much of a painter, I tend to just tip the bucket on their heads and move on to the next point. Tact- that's the stuff in the locker next to the horses stall, right? Dan (blunt, but not always dull) C
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
It must told to them...Repentence is an active doing of obedience to Yehoshua based on belief, and must follow the agreement of a man's knowledge that Yehoshua is our Redeemer. Belief in Yehoshua is merely mental assent to a fact. The demons know that Yehoshua is Mashiach, and it gets them nothing. Those that give only that mental assent to Yehoshua as Redeemer, but do not turn from their lawlessness, nor ask to be forgiven, and taken into relationship with Yehoshua are not saved. The pastor that does not even mention that Yehoshua required for His followers to love YHVH with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbors as themselves is leading people into damnation if he does not also tell them this kind of love requires doing that love towards G-d and man.Obedience to what YHVH wants people to do is the showing of that love toward G-d, for it is the turning away from how they had been living their lives before they came to belief in Yehoshua that is the repentence that is necessary to be included in the complete forgiveness that Yehoshua offers by His death and resurrection. A pastor that just says believe in Yehoshua, and celebrate your redemption is only teaching a half-truth...which by any other name is a lie.The pastor may not know that he is not telling the entire gospel, but only the semblance of it, and thus leading others astray. If you are the only person in attendance that knows the truth, it lies in your hands to get it to him in a way he will hear...take the AoG statement of beliefs to him privately, and ask him why he is not teaching anything that promotes those beliefs.
I particularly recommend a chat with that pastor about the need to teach about becoming holy, as is stated in those beliefs.
However, bringing up to the Pastor that having crackers and grape juice to remember Yehoshua's self sacrifice is in violation of the  in your viewpoint is not going to win you a hearing about the weightier matters of obedience...he's not Jewish, he does not adhere to the Mosaic Covenant, but the Renewed covenant, and teaching him the niceties of temple sacrifice when in his mind he is not making a sacrifice ( AoG does not adhere to the doctrine of transubstantiation) is not talking about the real need for repentance of sin as a key component of salvation.
ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm9. Sanctification
Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God.
Romans 12:1,2 [KJV/NIV]
1 Thessalonians 5:23 [KJV/NIV]
Hebrews 13:12 [KJV/NIV]
The Scriptures teach a life of "holiness without which no man shall see the Lord."
Hebrews 12:14 [KJV/NIV]
By the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to obey the command: "Be ye holy, for I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15,16 [KJV/NIV]
Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by the faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 6:1-11 [KJV/NIV]
Romans 6:13 [KJV/NIV]
Romans 8:1,2 [KJV/NIV]
Romans 8:13 [KJV/NIV]
Galatians 2:20 [KJV/NIV]
Philippians 2:12,13 [KJV/NIV]
1 Peter 1:5 [KJV/NIV]
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Post by alon on Apr 20, 2014 13:57:09 GMT -8
Thanks Questor; I should point out that the pastor there does preach repentance, though not as strongly as I'd like. He also preaches obedience, just nowhere near as thoroughly as he should. My problem is with a small but strong faction there which does not take kindly to their "feel good" religion being challenged. What started this whole thing is the pastor did preach a sermon in which he talked about both repentance and obedience. My worry is that they will have some influence on the pastor and others in the congregation (people other than the "pew potatoes", who always agree with them anyhow).
As you point out, their whole doctrine is light on these two critical aspects of salvation. Repentance is said to happen when we say "yes" and obedience is only to the New Testament which they conveniently interpret using the Greek mythological method to mean whatever they want. Saying "Be blessed, and feel good in your sins," they have actually out-Catholicitized the Catholics! While the pastor may be guilty of treating this part of salvation lightly, they assault it whenever it is brought up. I of course support the pastor for saying repentance is a separate part of the process and obedience thereafter is necessary, but they are not above using the "Messianic" card to isolate me from him/them. And in truth I am not a member there, or in any Pentecostal church.
Mainstream Pentecostals all adhere to "New Testament" doctrine, not "Renewed Covenant" doctrine; the difference being primarily the methods of interpretation. They use the Greek mythological method, where anyone adhering to a "Renewed Covenant" would have to be using Hebraic hermeneutical methods of interpretation. As for "Transubstantiation", neither they nor I hold that the wafer/cracker/matzah/whatever becomes the actual flesh of Christ. It represents the flesh of Jesus/Yeshua, just as the juice only represents His blood. But the commandment remains the same, regardless. I pointed this out to the pastor a while ago. I also suggested that they use the occasion of the next Passover to stock up on matzah, as it would be available and inexpensive enough at that time to stock up for a year. We'll see if they did, but I have my doubts.
You are correct though that the idea of repentance is far more important in this case. If the feel good faction has its desired effect on shuting down the preaching of repentance, or even the watering down effect of calling saying "yes" to the "eternal question" means they've repented, then I could no longer fellowship there. This will put a strain on my marriage, but I'd just have to act in faith and move forward. Just my standing up to them now (ok, I sort of did push back some ... OK, kind of hard ...) was risky. My wife is a little touchy on my bringing my Messianic beliefs there, even though she wants me to go there with her.
No one said it would b easy.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
