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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 18:02:11 GMT -8
I was looking for information earlier and I came across this verse. I am a bit confused by this because of another verse that states otherwise. I thought that someone would be able to give me a better understanding on the two verses. The first verse states this. " But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." Hebrews 2:9 NKVJ "But we do see Yeshua - who indeed was made for a little while lower than the angels - now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God's grace he might taste death for all humanity." Complete Jewish Bible. My question is why would Yeshua make Himself a little lower than the angels if He is God who came in the flesh? Or is this talking only of His humanity in the flesh? The other verse states this. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:5-8 NKJV "Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal!" Phippians 2:5-8 Complete Jewish Bible. Hmmm. maybe the last three verse may have answered my question? So my thinking is how could Yeshua who is God make Himself lower than the angels and yet make Himself equal with God? I would laugh at myself if I answered my own question with the last three verses in Philippians 2:5-8, Which I am starting to think that I did.  Moriah Ruth |
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Post by Questor on Mar 14, 2014 20:52:25 GMT -8
Mar 14, 2014 19:02:11 GMT -7 moriahruth7 said: I was looking for information earlier and I came across this verse. I am a bit confused by this because of another verse that states otherwise. I thought that someone would be able to give me a better understanding on the two verses. The first verse states this. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." Hebrews 2:9 NKVJ "But we do see Yeshua - who indeed was made for a little while lower than the angels - now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God's grace he might taste death for all humanity." Complete Jewish Bible. My question is why would Yeshua make Himself a little lower than the angels if He is God who came in the flesh? Or is this talking only of His humanity in the flesh? The other verse states this. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:5-8 NKJV "Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal!" Phippians 2:5-8 Complete Jewish Bible. Hmmm. maybe the last three verses may have answered my question? So my thinking is how could Yeshua who is God make Himself lower than the angels and yet make Himself equal with God? I would laugh at myself if I answered my own question with the last three verses in Philippians 2:5-8, Which I am starting to think that I did. Moriah Ruth These words are my favorite amongst those that describe the divinity of Yeshua...Why He is from Old...as in the beginning of the Universe, and that He is YHVH.
When Yeshua was separated out of YHVH to be placed into the human body that was specifically designed for Him, that part that was separated out was not the creative, powerful, glorious, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent part of YHVH, but the more active, personal part of YHVH, His mouth, and his right arm.
To me, this active part is best described as the Shekinah, although I may be wrong in my terminology.
Yeshua did not steal divine equality...He was part of YHVH from Everlasting. Yeshua shares YHVH's soul, would be the best way of describing it.
Think of YHVH as a massive sphere of energy, surrounding the core of Himself, and then pinching off just that active part of the core of YHVH that Yeshua had already been in Him, to make a separate identity at that time of separation, then placing that identity into a human seed/ovum, and then allowing Yeshua to develop normally.
Being placed in a human form made Yeshua a lesser creature than an angel for the time of His life as a Human, having no power of His own, and no direct connection to YHVH until the Holy Spirit joined them back together at Yeshua's baptism. This enabled Yeshua to experience life as a human, with all the temptations and problems, but to have an already tutored soul to help Him get past all of it.
However, going from being all powerful to a mere, fallen human was humiliating beyond measure from a human viewpoint...going from All to nothing, and having to trust what seems to be an Other Being to protect and care for you after always actually being able to do as you pleased, when you pleased, except for the rules you have set down for yourself. Scary.
And for a being, like myself, with excessive pride...I have felt it...going from running my life, to having to turn it over to get it out of the ditch I crashed into.
I do not, however, believe that Yeshua even felt a twinge of being diminished...When the decision was made by YHVH to make Adam, the plan B option of Adam choosing badly was there, and ready to be effected before Adam had breath blown into him. Yeshua was part of YHVH when the decision was made, and probably had never felt He was being made lesser than He had been.
Yeshua can't have started out as a human entirely empty of experience and knowledge, or He could not have been perfect in all His ways, a New Adam. We humans, on the other hand, have a soul that has a blank slate when we are born, except for that which Abba chooses to place in us...perhaps that part that draws us to Him. But Yeshua had to grow up with all of Him being both Divine and Human.
Making Yeshua powerless was the most dangerous thing that YHVH could do to Yeshua. Only with memories, and knowledge, deep in His soul, and not His mind, could Yeshua live and breathe without direction in His life. He knew what the Father would do and had done in all things, because He had been part of the Father. And all YHVH had to do was place a hedge of protection around Yeshua, so that He would be safe growing up.
So, you might say he was a 'natural' at doing what He did. But it must have been agonizingly difficult to experience being human with no sure clarity of knowledge until He was baptised, and His old Spirit filled Him again.
Yeshua truly had the ability to say no to the crucifixion, but would not, could not, no matter His human trepidation, forget who He had been, and what He was going to do, and why.
But while He was human, He could not help but feel as a human would, dreading not so much the cruxifiction, for many have gone through that, but the Curse of all mankind being laid upon Him, and being completely seperated from the rest of Himself, perhaps even from existence, for the time period necessary to take our curse. |
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Post by alon on Mar 15, 2014 5:31:56 GMT -8
"But we do see Yeshua - who indeed was made for a little while lower than the angels - now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God's grace he might taste death for all humanity." Complete Jewish Bible.My question is why would Yeshua make Himself a little lower than the angels if He is God who came in the flesh? Or is this talking only of His humanity in the flesh? "Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal!" Phippians 2:5-8 Complete Jewish Bible.... I would laugh at myself if I answered my own question with the last three verses in Philippians 2:5-8, Which I am starting to think that I did. Nothing wrong with thinking on your feet ... I read these verses as that Yeshua willingly took on a form and station that was lower than the spirirt, or angelic part of His creation in order that He could redeem the weakest part of His eternal creation- us. He was God, from eternity to eternity, yet He took on our limitations and tasted death for us. Think about it- he was born a baby, totally helpless. He had to grow and learn just as we did. Yet the Ruach HaChodesh was with Him so that He lead a sinless life. Then He willingly sacrificed that life for us in one of the cruelest forms of execution - after suffering humiliation, rejection and scourging. They basically say God made a part of Himself to become man for His redemption purposes. How He accomplished that, making part of Himself a man is not told, and I try not visualize it and thus put limits on God. Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 16:20:22 GMT -8
Thank you Questor and Alon for responding to my question. However I have not read to much into it as I am needed elsewhere. So I hope to be able to read it in more detail tomorrow morning before I go to work. Blessings to you both.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 18:24:30 GMT -8
Okay now that I had a chance to read this over in more detail, I do thank everyone for sharing their thoughts on this question. I can see the human side of Yeshua who came in the flesh. Also I see the God side of Yeshua.
Moriah Ruth
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- there are 70 faces to 
