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Post by Questor on Jan 16, 2014 20:14:39 GMT -8
I am often perplexed by what the Old Covenant means for Jews and their Salvation.
I know that non-Messianic Jews are still beloved of YHVH, but what is their status under the Renewed Covenant?
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jan 17, 2014 8:37:42 GMT -8
There is a slight contradiction in what you said. I agree completely with your reference to the Renewed Covenant. There is no Old Covenant! Just like there is no Old Testament. I prefer to call it the Original Testament (Covenant) and the Renewed Testament. There has always been only One Covenant though it is restated at times and was renewed by the final sacrifice.
We are ALL God's children.
(My understanding...) The Jews are particularly blessed because of God's promise to faithful Abraham and their obedience. All (Jew, Messianic, Gentile, or whatever) have drifted from truth since Eden and all are called to continued growth back into truth. All who have faith in God and follow the truth to the best of their understanding will receive Salvation. God is the source of truth revealed by the Word and the Spirit.
This has never changed and never will change no matter who you are.
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Post by alon on Jan 18, 2014 2:37:18 GMT -8
Salvation was the same for Jews under the Old Covenant(s) as it is for us under the Renewed Covenant. The entire Bible is more tan anything else a history of how God continues to make a way for fallen man to be reconciled to Himself. Under any/every form of the covenant this has been done by grace- the unmerited favor of God, through our repentance and turning from sin to trust in God.
My view is that this includes some point where we make a decision to follow God. We may fall away, and step out from the security of His grace. But we also may fall on our faces, repent and beg His forgiveness, and be so reinstated.
The only difference I see is that while prior to Yeshua they looked forward to and trusted in God to send a Redeemer. We now look back on that redeemer, and so must now trust in Yeshua as God come to be the final redemption for mankind who believes in Him, before or since.
Since being a non-Messianic Jew implies unbelief that Yeshua is God, the redeemer, then they are unsaved. This is truly a tragedy that so many of Gods people will not consider this possibility because in large part of their treatment by "Christians" over the years having preconditioned them not to even look.
Dan C
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jan 19, 2014 5:50:09 GMT -8
Salvation was the same for Jews under the Old Covenant(s) as it is for us under the Renewed Covenant. I would extend what you said. Salvation is the same for all under the covenant. Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. Since being a non-Messianic Jew implies unbelief that Yeshua is God, the redeemer, then they are unsaved. I am uncomfortable with the idea that all non-Messianic Jews who do not believe in IAUSHUO are not saved. Don't you think there may be some sincere Jews (and non-Jews) who have not had the opportunity to truly know and understand our Savior but faithfully follow God to the best of their understanding, can still be redeemed? I believe this is the same for obeying all of God's Law. Some have been misled but sincerely obey what they know. I believe God's grace and the redemptive power of our redeemer still reaches them. I also believe God has many methods of revealing truth, which if rejected, lead a person to destruction. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 19:26:49 GMT -8
"IAUSHUO"
Where did you get this translation from?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Jan 20, 2014 22:20:15 GMT -8
It sounds like a transliteration into Roman letters directly from the Hebrew letters, using vowel points...which I would call 'squigglies with dots', which allow you to sound out the Hebrew text. It could also be a transliteration from the Greek into Roman Letters. They would sound very similar, and I believe that the poster is a Greek Scholar.
Sounding out the name Yeshua is okay on this forum...sounding out YHVH is not, as the Talmud teaches to never say G-ds Name aloud, except by the Cohen Gadol on the Day of Atonement, which means no one has heard it pronounced since AD 70, and if there was a temple standing now, I presume that the Name would be spoken only in the Holy of Holies, and probably very softly.
It would be interesting to see what the vowel points are when attached to Hebrew text, but from what I understand, no one knows these days for sure HOW to say it. So we all would be guessing.
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Post by Questor on Jan 20, 2014 22:56:31 GMT -8
Salvation was the same for Jews under the Old Covenant(s) as it is for us under the Renewed Covenant. I would extend what you said. Salvation is the same for all under the covenant. Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. Since being a non-Messianic Jew implies unbelief that Yeshua is God, the redeemer, then they are unsaved. I am uncomfortable with the idea that all non-Messianic Jews who do not believe in IAUSHUO are not saved. Don't you think there may be some sincere Jews (and non-Jews) who have not had the opportunity to truly know and understand our Savior but faithfully follow God to the best of their understanding, can still be redeemed? I believe this is the same for obeying all of God's Law. Some have been misled but sincerely obey what they know. I believe God's grace and the redemptive power of our redeemer still reaches them. I also believe God has many methods of revealing truth, which if rejected, lead a person to destruction.
Since Yeshua came to the Jews FIRST, then I have to presume He was definitely worried about it. It is Yeshua who said, "You must be born again,".
John 3:2-7 (CJB) 2 This man came to Yeshua by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know it is from God that you have come as a teacher; for no one can do these miracles you perform unless God is with him.” 3 “Yes, indeed,” Yeshua answered him, “I tell you that unless a person is born again from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nakdimon said to him, “How can a grown man be ‘born’? Can he go back into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?” 5 Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6 What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit. 7 Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above! I seek to learn the  to be walking in obedience, as Yeshua asked us to do. In the over 2000 references to the in the New Testament, it is obvious that one should do so.
The Jews that do all the Mitzvot are doing well in their eyes, and certainly in mine...except for that born again part.
Obviously, to a Messianic Jew, they saw some reason to put their faith and trust in Yeshua for the salvation that the cannot bring of itself, because to miss the mark at all means you get the curses as a result of your imperfect action. No human can keep the perfectly, and we can rest in Yeshua, not by avoiding the mitzvot of the , but because of His action as our Kinsman Redeemer, taking our curses onto Himself.
I wanted to know how the Messianic Jews approach that part of the matter.
I automatically assume that all Jews under the Temple system are in no trouble with Abba, because Yeshua had not come to bring the Light onto the sin the revealed in man.
But all those Jews since The Day of Yeshua's death worry me a great deal. It is not those that do not hear about Yeshua that trouble me, but those who have heard, and studied, and are blind to all that is plain to any Messianic Beleiver.
Those Jews that live in unbelief of Yeshua do so at their peril, and only those that actually live, and remain to see His coming walk into the Kingdom despite not believing. That is the Remnant of Israel.
And those that hear about Yeshua, and reject Him, I leave to YHVH, but I am not sanguine about the situation. I am scared for them, as I am scared for all the unsaved in this world.
Their works will be tested in the fires of Judgment, and if any of their works survive that trial by fire, they will also have their place in the Kingdom.
My worry is about those with sins being able to outweigh the works...since if it were going to be all that easy to walk in the , and remain pure and perfect, why did Yeshua come? |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Apr 30, 2014 8:47:00 GMT -8
"IAUSHUO" Where did you get this translation from? Moriah Ruth I missed seeing this question. Questor has it basically correct. However, it is a transliteration from the Biblical Hebrew removing the vowel points, which I believe were not part of the original writings. This is a very controversial subject. I discuss the basis for this transliteration in depth on my website www.wordiaua.info Word of IAUA. I am !NOT! a Greek or Hebrew scholar. I am a trained scientist (Computer Science) who has used the scientific method to investigate this subject. |
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Post by alon on Apr 30, 2014 13:13:48 GMT -8
I am uncomfortable with the idea that all non-Messianic Jews who do not believe in IAUSHUO are not saved. Don't you think there may be some sincere Jews (and non-Jews) who have not had the opportunity to truly know and understand our Savior but faithfully follow God to the best of their understanding, can still be redeemed? I believe this is the same for obeying all of God's Law. Some have been misled but sincerely obey what they know. I believe God's grace and the redemptive power of our redeemer still reaches them. I also believe God has many methods of revealing truth, which if rejected, lead a person to destruction. This is a common doctrine in mainstream churches, the idea that 'if they live up to the light they are given, they will be saved.' I am not sure about this doctrine, but would certainly hope it is true; otherwise a whole lot of my family and friends in mainC are not going to make it. In fact, very few since the 5th cen. CE, which if I recall (could be wrong- senility and all  ) was when we have the last historical reference to contemporary Natsarim until the mid 20th cen. But then we still have the problem of at what point are they 'living up to the light given' and at what point are they condemned? This becomes a problem when witnessing to those still in mainC. If we give them the truth, then they have a decision to make, as they are no longer living up to their own personal light. This would be the same for an observant Jew. So if they can't let go what they've been taught all their lives, are we then facilitating their destruction? The point is, when we get bogged down in these kinds of doctrines it keeps us confused and not as effective. I'd be lying if I told you I don't worry about it some. However, I just go with the philosophy that they all need the truth, and I offer to give it to them. I won't browbeat anyone who won't listen, but they all know who and what I am, and I'm always ready to share what I know. Rom 10:17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 30, 2014 15:29:32 GMT -8
I am uncomfortable with the idea that all non-Messianic Jews who do not believe in IAUSHUO are not saved. Don't you think there may be some sincere Jews (and non-Jews) who have not had the opportunity to truly know and understand our Savior but faithfully follow God to the best of their understanding, can still be redeemed? I believe this is the same for obeying all of God's Law. Some have been misled but sincerely obey what they know. I believe God's grace and the redemptive power of our redeemer still reaches them. I also believe God has many methods of revealing truth, which if rejected, lead a person to destruction. This is a common doctrine in mainstream churches, the idea that 'if they live up to the light they are given, they will be saved.' I am not sure about this doctrine, but would certainly hope it is true; otherwise a whole lot of my family and friends in mainC are not going to make it. In fact, very few since the 5th cen. CE, which if I recall (could be wrong- senility and all ) was when we have the last historical reference to contemporary Natsarim until the mid 20th cen. But then we still have the problem of at what point are they 'living up to the light given' and at what point are they condemned? This becomes a problem when witnessing to those still in mainC. If we give them the truth, then they have a decision to make, as they are no longer living up to their own personal light. This would be the same for an observant Jew. So if they can't let go what they've been taught all their lives, are we then facilitating their destruction? The point is, when we get bogged down in these kinds of doctrines it keeps us confused and not as effective. I'd be lying if I told you I don't worry about it some. However, I just go with the philosophy that they all need the truth, and I offer to give it to them. I won't browbeat anyone who won't listen, but they all know who and what I am, and I'm always ready to share what I know. Rom 10:17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.Dan C
His Grace is sufficient for salvation, but that salvation is given with the expectation of receiving the Holy Spirit, and the enabling by the Holy Spirit for Believers to act on the trust they are placing in Yehoshua.
Mere mental assent in MainC troubles me, because it does not seem to to do more than the demons themselves do, and the demons are at least afraid and tremble at their fate.
Only if they come to trust Yehoshua sufficiently to turn their lives over to Him does the Holy Spirit indwell us...in whole or even in part, and only then do the commandments begin to be inscribed on our hearts, bit by bit.
As for the Non-Messianic Jews, many are blocked by G-d from seeing the truth, and are thus not accountable for what they do not see, and if observant, they will go through the White Throne Judgement, where their mitzvot and faith in YHVH will be examined by fire.
Either way though, there will come a time when Abba will loose people, Jew and Gentile, from anything He has done to blind them from the Truth of Yehoshua...when the final Witnesses come, what ever form they take.
In that time, many Jews will recognize Yehoshua, particularly those that already are Observant, and see that the AntiChrist is their enemy.
If they die rather than worship an Idol, I rather think that YHVH will consider that highly in their favor at the White Throne Judgement. No guarantees, but if their faith is as strong as Abrahams, and they act on them unto death, why would Abba not count that as righteousness?
And with those that are Believers, do we not need to have some fruit to display as evidence that the Ruach haKodesh is working in us, teaching us and drawing us to be more and more obedient in following in Yehoshua's footsteps?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 15:54:23 GMT -8
Thank you Frank. I had actually forgotten that I asked you that question. Blessings to you.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Apr 30, 2014 20:38:39 GMT -8
Questor, while I can see your reasoning, the verse that kept going through my mind while reading your post was Prov 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on May 13, 2015 13:16:17 GMT -8
I think this topic is complicated by our lack of understanding regarding G-D's sovereignty. G-d knows who belongs to Him before we do. If someone dies an unbeliever, Jew or Gentile, we have to trust G-d's wisdom and know He knows the heart. It may seem like all of us don't get the choice or the chance, but that is because we don't have G-d's perspective and wisdom. Abraham was surrounded by pagan culture and practices, but he still belonged to G-d even in the midst of all of that. G-d knew to ask Abraham to leave it behind because He knew Abraham would serve Him and His purpose. It's that way for all of us, I believe. He knows who will say yes to Him and who will say no. He leads those who belong to Him closer to Him, but the relationship has to start somewhere. I think it starts in our hearts. Also, salvation isn't just about getting a chance to know Him. Hagar knew G-d but never worshiped Him. She didn't build an alter to serve Him as we see the people of G-d do throughout scripture. This is just an example that it's not just about believing in Him or knowing who He is. It is also about knowing who we are not and being grateful for who He is. It is about knowing our lives belong to Him. I think salvation is basically the question "do you know from whom your life comes from?" We choose life or death based on how we respond to that question. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with G-d, and the word was G-d. He was with G-d in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." John 1:1-5 (one of my favorites.) Yeshua is life, apart from Him there is none. Yeshua is . To deny Yeshua is to deny the will of G-d. We choose life or death in that choice. It's the same question, "do you know from whom your life is from?" I have to ask the following question based on my own understanding or lack there of. I mean no disrespect. I love Israel and am indebted to the Jewish people. I also look forward to a glorious reunion between Yeshua and the his people for the world's sake and G-d's glory. The question is, as people who know Yeshua and know He is in the flesh, can we believe non-Messianic Jews are -observant without him? |
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Post by garrett on May 13, 2015 14:59:19 GMT -8
Whew...that's a doozy of a question. I have to think on that one.
Good to see you - garrett
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dzm
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Post by dzm on May 14, 2015 18:52:13 GMT -8
In Romans 3, Paul says it does not matter if someone is Jew or Gentile, or whether either is observant-- if there is no faith in Yeshua to take away sin, they will be condemned at the last judgment.
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- there are 70 faces to 
) was when we have the last historical reference to contemporary Natsarim until the mid 20th cen. 
