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Post by Questor on Sept 16, 2016 10:33:49 GMT -8
(22) And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
(23) But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(25) burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe (Exodus 21:22-25 JPS TaNaKH, 1917 ed.).
(22) When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. (23) But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, (24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (25) burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise (ibid, current JPS TaNaKH).
As you can see, the 1917 edition allows for the possibility that the departure of the pregnant woman's fruit was a premature birth, but the current edition is abortion-friendly, for it assumes the death of the unborn and treats it as if it warranted only a fine. The Shared Heritage Bible, then, may have a better TaNaKH and therefore be worth buying.
Sadly, the CJB follows the current JPS TaNaKH:
(22) “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges.
(23) But if any harm follows, then you are to give life for life,
(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(25) burn for burn, wound for wound and bruise for bruise (Exodus 21:22-25 CJB).
In looking at the different way of describing the meaning in a text, it is surely more a matter of taste as to which language is used if the same meaning flows to each description? Otherwise one chooses on accuracy, not difficulty of the language.
It would then be more to the point to decide which was more accurate in a legal sense, since this passage is describing penalties to be assessed due to damages occurring. Allowing more than one outcome to the damage is to be preferred...simply assuming that a miscarriage ensued rather than a live, but premature birth, is very important.
Either way, a fine is to be assessed, as determined by the husband of the woman...presumably based on how much grief he was getting at home, as to the insult, or to real damage, particularly as 1 in 4 births was fatal to the mother under the best circumstances, and the loss of the child not just a matter of heart, but a loss of future prosperity and security in old age.
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Post by alon on Sept 16, 2016 11:09:20 GMT -8
What are y'all's thoughts on the TLV versus the CJB as far as verse renderings and the fact that the TLV was created by a team of Messianic translators as opposed to an individual? The TLV seems to be the new translation being promoted in Messianic Judaism, although the CJB is still the most widely used. The TLV seems from my limited exposure to it to be a good translation. I’d prefer them to call “James” Ya’akov, but they do at least they call him Jacob. The chapter title is still “James,” I suppose to keep confusion at a minimum. And a collaborative effort will generally produce a much more accurate translation if that was the true goal of the team. However the NLT is not without either its detractors or its problems. For example, in its rendering of Mark 1:15 it says “ Turn away from your sins” instead of repent. I think repentance is one of the most important terms in the salvation message, and “turn away” doesn’t even halfway describe it: Mark 1:15 (ESV) and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:15 (TLV) “Now is the fullness of time,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near! Turn away from your sins, and believe in the Good News!”
Mark 1:15 (YLT) and saying -- `Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.'
To be fair, the Greek translation doesn’t do it justice either: Repent- G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō met-an-o-eh'-o From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
Their readers would have been much better served by going back to the Hebrew term probably used here, “ teshuva”- which implies not only a turning away from sin and a reformation or regeneration, but a turning towards the original state of man as he was when he walked with HaShem in the Garden. Markos 1:15 (OJB) And saying, The appointed time has been fulfilled and the Malchut Hashem has come near. Make teshuva, and have emunah in the Besuras HaGeulah.
I like the use of key words in Hebrew, as done in the OJB, because then we must look up those words and we get all the nuances of the Hebrew instead of the limited meanings of a pagan Greek translation and worse an English translation of that; even when done by men who do mean well. But failing the use of the word teshuva, at least the word repentance should be used. Because without repentance, there is no salvation. And turning away doesn’t even get us halfway to teshuva/repentance. However since there’s no such thing as a perfect translation, I think I’ll use it for a bit, comparing it to other translations and see how I like it. MJ is in need of a unifying text from which to read and study scripture. The CJB looked for a while like it might do that, but it does have quite a few errors. It was a good effort considering it was done by just one man. But any such work would invariably show the limitations and the biases of the one doing it. Maybe the TLV will do a better job and, if so it might become the standard text for the MJ community. But I’m not rushing out to replace my NASB carry Bible just yet. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Sept 16, 2016 18:30:14 GMT -8
I have the Tree of Life Bible and I guess I'd say that it's good. But I don't have anything to compare it to except greek translations of Bibles (NKJV, etc). I do appreciate the way it is written in a context that is far more Jewish. Just take various "eye-popping" verses and then compare them to something written in a "New Testament" and you might be pleasantly surprised. This is especially true if your mind has become more oriented to the Jewish (correct) approach to scriptures.
I don't know how many have been issued...the copyright on mine is 2011. And I'm hoping that they found one thing that really bothered me as I slowly went through it - there were typos. If there is one thing a true scribe would not tolerate, it would be that. Back in the day, a scroll had to be "scrapped" and they had to start all over again if a word was misspelled. There aren't tons of typos but there were enough to catch my eye. That was a bit of a downer for a minute or two.
I suppose it's good that a team worked on developing this Bible. But I wonder about a few people on the vetting, language and translating teams. To each his own (seriously) but many on the teams seem to be in the church-y world. For instance, Michael Brown is one of the language experts. He has a Ph.D in semitic languages. He's a very brilliant man but from what I do know of him.....I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that he's doing the christmas and easter thing. He does a great job of debating rabbi's but I don't get the sense that he has adopted the wonderful aspects of his own heritage.
Another translator is an elder with the Assemblies of God. Possible bias without even knowing it.
And a written endorsement from one of the Team Advisors said, "the tree of life bible is a wonderful new Bible. It is Jewish in context without being strained in archaic language."
Strained in archaic language??? Huh? How about the language of G-d?
All that said, I was able to productively read the bible once my little hissy-fit was over. It does seem far above anything like the old school bibles many of us read in the past, especially with reference to cultural context, the Jewish world and "how" things are said. Just my two cents worth.
Hoping all of you are well - garrett
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Loxody
Junior Member
Posts: 63 
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Post by Loxody on Sept 29, 2016 6:38:32 GMT -8
Here are some verses for comparison:
John 3:16
CJB
For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.
TLV
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NASB
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Psalms 23:3-6
CJB
He restores my inner person. He guides me in right paths for the sake of his own name. Even if I pass through death-dark ravines, I will fear no disaster; for you are with me; your rod and staff reassure me. You prepare a table for me, even as my enemies watch; you anoint my head with oil from an overflowing cup. Goodness and grace will pursue me every day of my life; and I will live in the house of Adonai
for years and years to come.
TLV
He restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for His Name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me: Your rod and Your staff comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You have anointed my head with oil, my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the House of Adonai forever.
NASB
He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness
For His name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with oil;
My cup overflows. Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Matthew 22:19-21
CJB
Show me the coin used to pay the tax!” They brought him a denarius; and he asked them, “Whose name and picture are these?” 21“The Emperor’s,” they replied. Yeshua said to them, “Nu, give the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor. And give to God what belongs to God!”
TLV
Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they said to Him. Then He said to them, “Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
NASB
Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
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- there are 70 faces to 
