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Post by Mark on Jul 31, 2009 3:48:47 GMT -8
Traditional Jewish talitot have only white titziot (tassles) and yet most Messianic believers who don titzit are passionate that they should contain the blue thread commanded in Numbers 15:38. There are a number of reasons given as to why the blue is no longer present in traditiona tallitot, and there is a movement of reintroducing it www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1236764170037but the resistance against this is strong, citing that we are unsure as to exactly which sea mollusk produces the blue color and that the restoration of these things is not the duty of the observant but will come from the Messiah when He comes. |
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Post by alon on Apr 27, 2013 14:57:29 GMT -8
According to my JPS Study Tanakh, one reason for wearing the blue strand in the tzitzyot is it was the same shade of violet-blue worn in the priests tassels. This was a way of identifying you with the Hebrew priests/religion, and the God they served. Wearing blue in your tzitzyot today is almost like saying you are Messianic. So while it may not be the exact shade of blue, it still serves the dual purpose of fulfilling the commandment and identification. I'm looking into learning to tie them and getting some tzitzit with blue for my tallit. But I want to do it right, not just rush in and do it wrong. So still researching. And looking in the archives here, which is why I found this ...  Anyhow, I go with yes, one blue strand in each tzitzit. Dan C |
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Post by messianicmama on Apr 27, 2013 15:37:24 GMT -8
I think so. If the option is between possibly using the wrong blue in an effort to fulfill the commandment or negating a portion of the commandment because we aren't 100%, I'd say err on the side of right.
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Post by alon on Apr 27, 2013 15:45:36 GMT -8
I think so. If the option is between possibly using the wrong blue in an effort to fulfill the commandment or negating a portion of the commandment because we aren't 100%, I'd say err on the side of right. True ...  Dan C |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Apr 28, 2013 6:33:47 GMT -8
Absolutely, we should follow the commandment as close as we understand. I do not place any importance on tradition except as described in the Word of God. I do not agree with those who say we need someone else to interpret the Bible for us.
Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Our Saviour quoted scripture with interpretation and made it even more of a promise.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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Post by messianicmama on Apr 28, 2013 8:45:23 GMT -8
Well, I personally believe that traditions are very important. Yeshua honored and commended a great many rabbinical traditions in his day. However, if the tradition misses the boat of the commandment, than we have to reject it. I understand the tradition of not wearing blue, but I don't agree with it. I don't dismiss it because it's traditional, but because I think it is more accurate to wear a similar color of blue than no blue at all.
My husband wears all white tzitziyot. He wants to buy some techelet when we have the means. For him, he views it as a sense of camaraderie with the rest of Israel.
I think, all in all the purpose of the commandment is to give us a tangible reminder that we are His people under His covenant. If a person is wearing anything that does this, that's a step in the right direction.
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Post by yiska on Apr 28, 2013 10:37:07 GMT -8
Absolutely, we should follow the commandment as close as we understand. I do not place any importance on tradition except as described in the Word of God. I do not agree with those who say we need someone else to interpret the Bible for us. Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. Our Saviour quoted scripture with interpretation and made it even more of a promise. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Thank you for sharing the verses. rings so true to my heart! |
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Post by alon on Apr 28, 2013 18:59:07 GMT -8
Absolutely, we should follow the commandment as close as we understand. I do not place any importance on tradition except as described in the Word of God. I do not agree with those who say we need someone else to interpret the Bible for us. ... Tradition isn't about having someone else interpret scripture for us so much as it is identifying with others of like belief. Where people get into trouble with traditions is when they are placed at the same level as scripture, or we get so wrapped up in them we can't adapt or function correctly. They are especially wrong if they contradict scripture. But as tools to help give us identity traditions are fine. I read commentaries to help me get more out of scripture, or "interpret" it if you will. Nothing wrong with that unless we again hold them equal to scripture or we forget to use discernment. They're just tools to help us learn. Without them I'd lose a lot of the depth of understanding available in scripture. And I guarantee that I can get into more trouble with my own understanding than I can with Matthew Henry's, for example. Used properly tools are constructive. Used improperly they can destroy. Poor quality tools are frustrating to use, and to have tools and not use them is a waste. But any way you look at it, the main tool is scripture and anything that gets in the way of using that has to go. Dan C |
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 28, 2013 21:17:21 GMT -8
I think so. If the option is between possibly using the wrong blue in an effort to fulfill the commandment or negating a portion of the commandment because we aren't 100%, I'd say err on the side of right. Shalom! I agree that we should have the blue in there. It was commanded and in doing so we are doing our best to fulfill what that command is about. I do also think that to do our best it should be on a four cornered garment. For women scarves are great since that have four corners. It just makes us be creative sometimes on how we will fulfill the command. Yedidyah |
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leyna
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Post by leyna on Apr 29, 2013 6:34:08 GMT -8
I honestly don't think having the exact color blue that was originally worn matters, or YaH would have specifically told us that was important. I make my own tzitzits, and I have lots of colors, and each one has a blue thread, just like the commandment says. I really don't care about what Orthodox Jews say is right or wrong, or whether women should or should not wear them. I am following what YaH tells me to do according to His Word, not what the traditions of man thinks is right or wrong. I am the only person who wears tzitzits in my synagogue, I've noticed, although they do have a weekly ritual during service where they "don the tallit" and recite the verse in Numbers about wearing the tzitzit. It irritates me, because the commandment is to wear them all the time, not just for a couple of minutes once a week during service. I have also noticed that the tzitzits in the tallits are all white. People look at me like I am weird for wearing mine faithfully, but I do-I love wearing them! It's a fun way to show YaH that I belong to Him.
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 29, 2013 6:50:12 GMT -8
I honestly don't think having the exact color blue that was originally worn matters, or YaH would have specifically told us that was important. I make my own tzitzits, and I have lots of colors, and each one has a blue thread, just like the commandment says. I really don't care about what Orthodox Jews say is right or wrong, or whether women should or should not wear them. I am following what YaH tells me to do according to His Word, not what the traditions of man thinks is right or wrong. I am the only person who wears tzitzits in my synagogue, I've noticed, although they do have a weekly ritual during service where they "don the tallit" and recite the verse in Numbers about wearing the tzitzit. It irritates me, because the commandment is to wear them all the time, not just for a couple of minutes once a week during service. I have also noticed that the tzitzits in the tallits are all white. People look at me like I am weird for wearing mine faithfully, but I do-I love wearing them! It's a fun way to show YaH that I belong to Him. It is great you are wearing them  I think we must always try to follow any command in a humble way so that it is a witness to our fellow brothers and sisters. I also think we can learn alot from non- messianic Jews even Orthodox. Something we need to be careful about is not destroying our witness to fellow Jews so I do think we should try to do our best not to do anything that they would find offensive (even on how we tie our tzitzit, not being on belt loops ect...). As long as it does not go against the Word I like the tallit katan as well as the tallit gadol for Shabbat. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 29, 2013 10:15:39 GMT -8
I do also think that to do our best it should be on a four cornered garment. For women scarves are great since that have four corners. It just makes us be creative sometimes on how we will fulfill the command. Yedidyah Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The round earth has four corners : north, south, west and east. Could a round garment have four corners: front, back, left and right? |
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Post by alon on Apr 29, 2013 10:17:40 GMT -8
... I think we must always try to follow any command in a humble way so that it is a witness to our fellow brothers and sisters. I also think we can learn alot from non- messianic Jews even Orthodox. Something we need to be careful about is not destroying our witness to fellow Jews so I do think we should try to do our best not to do anything that they would find offensive (even on how we tie our tzitzit, not being on belt loops ect...). As long as it does not go against the Word I like the tallit katan as well as the tallit gadol for Shabbat. I absolutely agree. First off, God chose to reveal Himself through the Jewish (Hebrew) people. That calling was never revoked. We can learn a lot about how we should approach God or stand humbly before Him from our Jewish brethren. We should also be concerned how we present Yeshua as Messiah and God to them. Never destroy our witness. There is also the danger that I see where we are once again displacing Jewish believers in the faith. Just as the early church was by far mostly Jews, who were effectively displaced by gentile believers by the mid 1st century, today we see Messianic Judaism becoming more gentile than Jew. With that comes customs that are strange to them, along with our continual wrangling over details they settled long ago. We rail against their traditions, while calling ourselves adopted heirs to promises God originally made to them! Must seem like deja vue all over again to them. Why would they want to consider converting into that? There is also the question of why we feel the need to push the Jews out and remake their religion in their name? Perhaps we should call ourselves "Messianic Gentiles" and, while we're at it we could change tradition again, wearing a red thread in our fringes because the blood covered the priestly blue (to be clear, I am NOT advocating this). My point is, we can find some justification for any changes we want to make. But why do we need to except in the cases where scripture is violated, such as putting back the blue thread? I am a believer in Messianic Judaism. As such, I see no problem in keeping Jewish traditions as long as they do not contradict scripture. Many offer a very beautiful picture of worship and respect that frankly is lacking in almost any gentile form of worship at all. Commandments first. Traditions second. My stubborn self will a distant third might be a good rule of thumb for me (not that I am usually all that successful in keeping my self will in check  ). Dan C |
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Post by messianicmama on Apr 29, 2013 16:09:10 GMT -8
I honestly don't think having the exact color blue that was originally worn matters, or YaH would have specifically told us that was important. I make my own tzitzits, and I have lots of colors, and each one has a blue thread, just like the commandment says. I really don't care about what Orthodox Jews say is right or wrong, or whether women should or should not wear them. I am following what YaH tells me to do according to His Word, not what the traditions of man thinks is right or wrong. I am the only person who wears tzitzits in my synagogue, I've noticed, although they do have a weekly ritual during service where they "don the tallit" and recite the verse in Numbers about wearing the tzitzit. It irritates me, because the commandment is to wear them all the time, not just for a couple of minutes once a week during service. I have also noticed that the tzitzits in the tallits are all white. People look at me like I am weird for wearing mine faithfully, but I do-I love wearing them! It's a fun way to show YaH that I belong to Him. Just an FYI, some people wear tzitziyot on a kattan tallit tucked into their pants. You might not be the only one who wears them. You never know! |
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Post by alon on May 1, 2013 11:28:19 GMT -8
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The round earth has four corners : north, south, west and east. Could a round garment have four corners: front, back, left and right? Symbolically, the four points of the compass can be called the "four corners of the earth." Not sure about applying that to garments, though. At any rate, I'm no more ready to have one dangling down my butt like a tail than I am to tie them to my belt loops ... unless I can shoo flies with it ...  Dan C |
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I think we must always try to follow any command in a humble way so that it is a witness to our fellow brothers and sisters. I also think we can learn alot from non- messianic Jews even Orthodox. Something we need to be careful about is not destroying our witness to fellow Jews so I do think we should try to do our best not to do anything that they would find offensive (even on how we tie our tzitzit, not being on belt loops ect...). As long as it does not go against the Word 
