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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 13, 2007 23:56:28 GMT -8
Now, now, be nice.... I don't think Yeshua is a P'rush. He is the Lion of Yehudah and Melech Yisrael (The King Of Yisrael). No doubt, He grew up within the various families of the P'rushim (Pharisees), but I would not go as far as to call him a P'rush. Perhaps even Yeshua's family was part of the fraternal order of the P’rushim, which would make his actions a "family matter" thus attracting the attention of the P'rushim leaders. But, if Yeshua truly considered himself a P'rush then the following proclamations would be self-condemning (and these are just a few)... Mat 23:14 "But woe to you, scribes and Perushim, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don't enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter. Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Perushim, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehinnom as yourselves. But, there is no doubt that our Master also agreed with many of the teachings of the P'rushim that were in line with His Father's  . But, this does not equate Yeshua as being a P'rush. I truly believe even though that on many occasions Yeshua would side with P'rushim teaching that He was truly an "independent", and truly a unique Mensch. Of course He is HaMashiach. I certainly believe the Nehemiah G. is way off base in his claims. Yeshua certainly was not a Sadducee, or a Kariate for that manner...by no means. He both criticized and resisted P'rushim community halachah and resisted many of the teachings of the Tz'dukim (Sadducees) as well. But, He did employee much halachah and tradition in His own walk and teachings. I certainly don't think we should set out to make the P'rushim or Orthodox Judaism out to be the way...Only Yeshua HaTzedek is the way, the truth, and the light to which all else are compared and to which all else stand or fall. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Nachshon on Nov 3, 2007 13:27:03 GMT -8
lol. I said I was leaning toward saying that I was tired, becasue I knew you didn't make a habit of talking nonsense. I also think that Nehemiah is mistaken in saying that R. Yehoshu'a was a Tz'duk. However, I think it is a mistake to say that he followed halacha. He clearly disapproves of Takanot and Ma'asim at the very least. But it's also an oversimplification to only pay attention to P'rushim and Tz'dukim. The Dead Sea sect (whether they were Essenes or not) certainly did not accept any concept of SheBa'al Peh, and I see no reason to believe that R. Yehoshu'a did, either. |
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Post by jewishjediguy on Nov 4, 2007 9:23:54 GMT -8
Shalom, i have read through this thread, but i don't think my brain retained anything i have read, so, please forgive me if i repeat things touched on, or even forget things.  but one thing stood out to me in this topic. simply put: Yeshua couldn't be a Parush because He is the Author of the from which the P'rushim derived their halakhah. He is the Builder of the House ( ), and therefore Master thereof. the P'rushim, as well as others who profess emunah in the Holy One of Blessing, are the children thereof, or better yet, the caretakers. it wouldn't be a matter of whether or not He agreed with them, but whether or not they agreed with Him. Hillel agreed with , which, essentially is agreeing with Yeshua. having said that, Yeshua at least acknowledged that their halakhah was agreeable from time to time, even in saying, "Whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do...etc" for they "Sit upon the kisse of Mosheh". (Mattith'yahu 23:2,3) but this agreement is only in the Light of the . there is a tradition that the relaxing of a mitz'vah is permissible to save one's life as long as it doesn't lead to blasphemy of the Holy One of blessing or profaning His Holy Name. remember what Yeshua said concerning David and those with him entering the Mish'kan of HASHEM and eating the Lechem ha Panim, which is not permissible for them to eat, but only the Kohanim? (Mattith'yahu 12:1-7) of course this tradition is not to be taken to the extreme. so it would seem in some things concerning their halakhah he was in agreement. there is also another tradition which speaks of Mashi'ach not only expounding upon the , but also correcting their halakhah in points of error. since He was to correct their halakhah, wouldn't that put him in a certain place of authority above them? after all, the Book of which they were expounding upon, in order to make a hedge of protection around it, is His Book ~ the . B' Yeshua ha Mashi'ach Nagid, ~ Yochanan |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Nov 10, 2007 0:32:57 GMT -8
Shalom Nachshon, thank you for clarifying. That is one of the problems with a forum, sometimes you cannot always see what someone is truly saying. Yochanan, You have made some excellent points. Thank you for contributing to this thread! Shabbat shalom, Reuel |
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. But, this does not equate Yeshua as being a P'rush. I truly believe even though that on many occasions Yeshua would side with P'rushim teaching that He was truly an "independent", and truly a unique Mensch. Of course He is HaMashiach. I certainly believe the Nehemiah G. is way off base in his claims. Yeshua certainly was not a Sadducee, or a Kariate for that manner...by no means. He both criticized and resisted P'rushim community halachah and resisted many of the teachings of the Tz'dukim (Sadducees) as well. But, He did employee much halachah and tradition in His own walk and teachings. I certainly don't think we should set out to make the P'rushim or Orthodox Judaism out to be the way...Only Yeshua HaTzedek is the way, the truth, and the light to which all else are compared and to which all else stand or fall.
but one thing stood out to me in this topic.
