Paul or no Paul. That is the question.

[RoRK]

Coming from a Methodist background, I was taught that Paul supported the abandonemend of Mosaic Law.

I always thought that that was contrary to what Jesus taught.; especially with regards to Matthew 5:17-18.

I then proceeded to research on Paul and the compilation of the New Testament and was quite dismayed at what I found.

Now I see that Messianic Judaism is agreeable to Paul's teachings but that he never taught against the Mosaic Law.

I now find two 'opposing' groups, Christians and Messianic Jews agreeing to Paul's teachings but both groups are interpreting Paul's teachings in diametrically different ways.

Can someone shed some light?

Thanks in advance.

God Bless

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom RoRK,
The more we learn about and Pharasaic Judaism, the more we can learn about Rav Sh'aul's (aka Paul) perspective. When interpreted properly, we find that Rav Sh'aul is not contradictory to Yeshua's teachings, but is actually right in line with them.

A little of Rav Sh'aul's background:
- 3rd Generation Pharisee
- Studied under Gamaliel (the grandson of the great Rabbi Hillel)
- became a follower of Yeshua after encountering him in his resurrected form

As for further information, I would encourage you take a look around on the forum here and read some of the discussions. There is a lot of good information to be found here.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Yes, does Christianity truly claim to understand a Torah observant Rabbi taught by other Torah Observant Rabbi's? Rav Sha'ul (Paul) is the only emissary that comes with a warning label...

"Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Sha'ul (Paul) also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
- 2Kefa (Peter) 3:15-16

And, the question is...Is it Messianic Judaism that does not understand the Hebraic context of this great Rabbi called Paul, or is it Christianity that has a lack of understanding? I think the answer is obvious. They build their theology off of their misunderstandings of this great Rabbi. They even seem to elevate their misunderstanding of Sha'ul's (Paul's) writings over Messiah's sayings. Greek minded Pauline Christianity is the one at a loss.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Cool, a quick reply box!
Rabbi Sha'ul's writings are written always for the extremely learned and for the synogogues that would never lose . If there didn't exist this foolish ideal of a dead , then I believe that there would be an enormous sect of Judaism being messianic. This foolishness has caused so many to throw the Bible out the door because it obviously disagrees with itself when you look at it incorrectly. Anything that does not agree with the Bible is false, and anyone who does not completely agree with scripture is false.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Rabbi Sha'ul's writings are written always for the extremely learned and for the synogogues that would never lose . If there didn't exist this foolish ideal of a dead , then I believe that there would be an enormous sect of Judaism being messianic.

Yes, I believe you are right. Sha'ul's (Paul's) writings are not for the beginner.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Yes, I believe you are right. Sha'ul's (Paul's) writings are not for the beginner.

I would agree with you both here. Rav Sh'aul's writings are mostly on the sod level and too hard to grasp for those just starting to live out their faith.

[Mark]

HI Guys,

I'm uncomfortable with the statement that Paul's writings are not for the beginner simply because his writings were to beginners; and while I understand (and agree) with what you are saying, I know that this site is read by many Christian church people seeking to understand our position- if only to find holes in it.

Rabbi Shaul was writing to new believers; and as such was very careful to weight his message in such a way that would counter their paganistic inclinations - justification before a deity by ritual practice. Yet, within the context of his message he is always careful to promote obedience without placing confidence in it. When someone says, "But Paul said..." all I usually only have to respond with is, "Keep reading." They either have to change their interpretation of the text they are using or follow a line of theological schizophrenia.

On at least four occasions in the New Testament, Paul identified himself as a Observant Jewish rabbi. Twice he testified that he had never taught contrary to the Law (once in Romans including a sharp condemnation on any one who would suggest otherwise). This would mean that if he ever taught against , he is both a hypocrite and a liar. Well, I'm not sure about anyone else; but I'm not prepared to call someone who wrote nearly half of what we consider the inspired Word of God a liar.

There are some in Messianic circles who throw out Paul's writings on exactly this basis of misunderstanding. If it is a question of believe Paul or believe and obey , should win. I think, if Paul were antinomian, that would be the right response. Think about what is suggested in 56 AD. Should we believe the Bible... or this Paul guy? It's silly to suggest that the Jewish Church would have endorsed Paul as they did if he were against the Law. Unquestionably the Church would have split down ethnic lines at the counsel of Jerusalem if that were the case.

[Chizuk Emunah]

I'm uncomfortable with the statement that Paul's writings are not for the beginner simply because his writings were to beginners...

That's true, in a sense. However, most new believers these days do not have a firm foundation in . This is essential in order to try to get a grasp on what Rav Sh'aul is trying to communicate. Otherwise, it is far too easy to twist his words into a position of Torahlessness. Kefa himself warned that Rav Sh'aul's writings were worded in such a way as to be easily twisted.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Mark,

I hear what you are saying. Some of the reasons I said what I did in regard's to Sha'ul's (Paul’s) writings is because I do believe that believers during his time had a different foundation than what believers have today. The foundation of the believers during his time was already the TeNaKh as Sha’ul encouraged them to test his writings by this (Acts 17:11). Sadly, this does not seem to be Christianity’s foundation or focus today. Also, the original order of the Brit Chadashah (New. Test.) had Sha'ul's writings toward the end. As most books are read from the beginning to end this would place the in-depth study of Sha’ul’s writings at a later time. I believe that Kefa (Peter) even during his time warned those whom do not have a firm foundation in TeNaKh when reading Sha’ul’s writings….

"Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Sha'ul (Paul) also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
- 2Kefa (Peter) 3:15-16

If it is those whom lack knowledge of the scriptures whom twist Sha’ul’s writings to their own destruction, I think that it is a compassionate thing to warn those whom are new believer’s to not jump into Sha’ul’s writings before they study the rest of the scriptures first.

Blessings,

Reuel

[Mark]

What grieves me to the deepest levels is the biblical illiteracy of believers in "Christ". We're not just talking about "new" believers. I recently wrote an exchange in the local newspaper confronting a Doctor of Theology- his basis was that Christianity is about faith (an intellectual acceptance or understanding) and that Jesus' teachings should have no significant affect on a person's conduct. This is a teacher of teachers!!!

“And many false prophets shall rise up and lead many astray. “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold.Mat 24:11-12 The Scriptures '98

I fear that this age in which we live faces the hottest wrath of Elohim because we have least excuse. The Bible is presented in every language, every educational level, every medium of communication that could possibly be imagined. We can search the Scriptures at the touch of a button by any criteria we can set forth. Yet, we refuse to be taught by the Word and through His Spirit.

Paul said that in the last days men would not heed sound doctrine; but would heep to themselves teachers, having itching ears. Did you know that Paul tells us exactly where to find sound doctrine?

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
(1Ti 1:9-10 KJV)

It is most discouraging that my friends, family, neighbors and the "theological giants" of my community have no eyes to see it. They don't read the Scriptures!!! They glance at them to bring back to mind the teachings they have accepted from men.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

You could not have spoken more truly. May G'd bless them with the understanding and knowledge to set the captives free!

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Yes. We all pray that HaShem would open their eyes to the truth, just as he did for us.

[Rick]

It is most discouraging that my friends, family, neighbors and the "theological giants" of my community have no eyes to see it. They don't read the Scriptures!!! They glance at them to bring back to mind the teachings they have accepted from men.

An idea for a new thread. "How do you structure your personal study, and what resources do you find most useful?"
Favorite translations, authors, references, etc. I think it would be interesting to share our regimen.
Phi 3:13-14
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which G-d has called me heavenward in Messiah Yeshua.

[RoRK]

Thanks for all the replies. First off, I think it is unfair to say that only a Jew will have a better understanding of Paul's writings - or something along that line of thought. Secondly, I do agree that there are a lot of misunderstanding pertaining to Paul's writings.

I am of the opinion that Paul's writings are not Spirit-led. I feel quite strongly that we would all be for the better if not for his writings. I do not see how his writings add to what Jesus and the prophets have already laid out. I am off course open to changing my mindset.

I would like to point to a few scriptures of importance to my thinking:
Galatians 2 1-10 (with emphasis on verse 10). Here Paul writes clearly that the only thing the Jerusalem Council asked of him was that he continue to teach as he had and to collect money for the poor in Jerusalem.

However, if one were to check with Acts 15 19-21, we see that Paul was asked to do more than to just collect money for the poor. He was to preach the persistency of observing the Tanakh and its teachings.

Although it is clear that Paul was an observant Jew, it is also clear that he taught the Gentiles quite a different 'gospel' - ie. the observance of the Tanakh was irrelevant.

Should one venture further into Galatians, specifically, 2: 11-21 and beyond, into chapter 3. We see that Paul is upset at Peter. We should ask, why was Paul upset with Peter and why did Paul use such harsh words against Peter, "The Rock". One whom Jesus chose to build his church on.

I am against Paul for using such strong words against Peter. I do not see how the Spirit could have led Paul to write such words against Peter.

[Mark]

Rork,

You can't forget that when you're reading the Pauline Epistles, you're reading somebody else's mail. Paul was writing to address specific circumstances in his letters, without exception, the book of Galatians.

It would be helpful to read through Paul's letters in a translation that does not have chapter and verse divisions to see the continuity of his message. We seem to read Galatians with a pair of scissors, cutting out individual thoughts as if they had no context or point of reference. Paul's message to the Galatians is singular and specific and (rightly concluded) within the context of Acts 15. The teaching that Galatians had accepted was that becoming a Jewish proselyte was necessary before one could be included in the saving work of the Messiah- another gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

Also remember that we're dealing with a translation- Paul didn't write to the Galatians in king's English. When Paul wrote concerning "the poor", it was not (in context) referring to their financial status; but rather their spiritual condition. The three requirements placed upon the gentiles in Acts 15 were specifically in reference to the pagan ritual idolatry commonly practiced throughout Asia. They were "destitute" concerning spiritual things.

I believe that Paul's writings are "Spirit-led" and worth our study. Yet, as all Scripture, I believe that it must be read in its relative position to , as I believe all ha and Brit Hadashah are commentary on , not addition to, amendment or abridgment of .