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Post by yearn2learn on Sept 16, 2005 3:28:59 GMT -8
I believe that a wife needs to submit to her husband.
However, my question is.......Should a wife not have fellowship with other believers, such as church, if her husband commands her not to?
Also, should a wife keep quiet about Yeshua to their children because the husband does not want them taught about him?
I've heard different views, and I'd sure welcome and appreciate your take on it, please!
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Post by Mark on Sept 16, 2005 6:01:23 GMT -8
This is a very difficult subject. We walk a fine line in all relationships of honor and submission.
Yeshua said, "No one can serve two masters. Either that person will recoil from the one and will love the other, or will adhere to the one and disesteem the other." (Mark's own loose handling of the Greek Matt 6:24).
Yet, repeatedly and clearly the wife is to live submissive to her husband. If she is to obey God (who tells her to obey her husband) but her husband tells her to disobey God, she is living an amazing paradox- one that, frankly, I would just assume not have to deal with.
Yet, we have a similar instruction as men to be in submission to the governing powers under which we live (1st Peter 2:13). If the government commands us to do what is unlawful in the eyes of God, how do we respond?
I think the best (and most well known) example of this is in Daniel 3. We all know the story of the three Hebrew men that would not bow down to the image erected by Nebuchadnezzar. The response of the Hebrews in Daniel 3:17-18 has been preached as brave defiance to the ruler; but I'd like to look closely at a couple of points in the following verses. In verse 22, the flames of the great furnace killed the men who were conducting the execution. This happened before the Hebrews actually fell down into the furnace (verse 23). So who threw them into the fire? The only conclusion I can arrive at is that they went down willingly.
This is the point. It was echoed by Peter and the other apostles in Acts 5:29 when they said, "We ought to obey God rather than men." When the choice is put before us, whom should we obey, the answer must always be God. Yet, there are consequences to that decision. The examples that I see in believers throughout Scripture is to accept the consequences humbly.
This is where it gets tough. I don't know if your situation is hypothetical or what. I know that these sort of things exist; but what consequences result in a decision to choose God over man vary tremendously. Should a wife submit to a husband who threatens to beat her? The Bible gives no exception nor qualification to the commandment. In reality, you place yourself in the same position as Paul who remained faithful to Judaism and even to the Jewish court who beat him repeatedly and would have killed him. (Fortunately, there are other laws and factors that we can consider and utilize if the home environment is threatening.)
I would suggest this wife sit down with her husband and tell him plainly (just as the three Hebrews told the king of Babylon), "I honor you. I respect you. I am commanded by God to live under your authority; but when you force me to choose between obeying Him and obeying you, I must choose to obey Him."
We see this spelled out in 1st Corinthians 7:12-15. If the wife is in complete obedience to the unbelieving husband's restrictions, there would be no cause for conflict. The necessity of the husband leaving rather than forbiding her worship would not be even a possibility if she obeyed him above God in such a way as you describe.
The whole thing breaks my heart. We have a family in our fellowship who is in a similar position; but the key that I think holds things together is in obeying the commandments as opposed to doing what ever you want that falls under the heading of religious worship. What I'm saying is, Adonai commands us to rest on the Sabbath. Unbelieving husbands tend to have a problem with this. Yet, the submissive wife might give the alternative- "I will work until sundown Friday evening and be up all the earlier Sunday morning so that I may worship Adonai on the day that He has commanded."
The fellow in our community started with telling his wife that she could not attend fellowship with us at all. Scripture doesn't command her to meet with us on Sabbath. She is commanded to rest. He's relented to say that she can spend an hour with us, but no more." It's amazing how Adonai can peel away the hardness of heart with gentle persistence mixed with humility.
I made a comment above that I must speak to- if you are in any danger of abuse, you are not only under the authority of your husband but you are also under the authority of your government. You need to report this danger to your local police or the Center Adainst Rape and Domestic Violence if it exists at all. You are not betraying your husband if you are reporting abusive behavior- you are rather getting him the help that he needs. It is no different than calling an ambulance for someone who got into an accident while driving drunk. You're doing something for them that they would prefer you not do; but you know is for their own good.
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Post by messimom on Sept 16, 2005 8:37:02 GMT -8
"I honor you. I respect you. I am commanded by God to live under your authority; but when you force me to choose between obeying Him and obeying you, I must choose to obey Him."
What a wonderful suggestion, spoken with wisdom. I might suggest changing three words however, from "you force me" to "I am forced", otherwise you can be inciting anger from the spouse for issuing blame and can cause a larger problem. I loved your advice. This also applies to a similar thread started by Stacey (I think) in which we had talked about a similar situation.
Messimom
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Post by yearn2learn on Sept 17, 2005 9:03:17 GMT -8
I only wish this were hypothetical for me to ask about this topic. However, I am in this situation and I sure appreciate your response!!!! I do need guidance on this! My husband and I are in agreement on  observance, just not about Yeshua as Messiah. About 4 years ago we quit attending a fellowship because my husband came to the conclusion that the New Testament is a deception. A few months later, I decided to attend regardless of what he said and that really did cause major conflict & stress. So, I gave up and stayed at home just to have some peace between us. Now, 4 years later, I really desire to go but, hate the thought of the struggle (not physically).  I know I can have a relationship with God without going to a fellowship but, I think it's rather tough, for me personally, to not have the encouragement I could have by attending a fellowship rather than just being on my own at home. Are you suggesting in any way that I should have my husband's consent to attend a fellowship or do I make my own decision on this and just go? I want to do what is right in God's eyes. We are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, right? ;D Without a doubt, is it a COMMAND to be in fellowship? |
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Post by Mark on Sept 17, 2005 17:19:35 GMT -8
I'm sorry that your husband has placed himself in such a contradictory position. Without question, it puts you in a really tough spot as well. Any advice we can give to you theologically places you in the position of being your husband's teacher. That's incredibly dangerous and unquestionably volatile. I say that your husband contradicts himself because commands us to teach everything of - this includes the coming of the Messiah. Genesis 3:15 refers to the seed of woman (a masculine pronoun which references a unique individual (he)). Genesis 49:10 tells of the sceptor of Judah consumating in the Messiah (translated "Shiloh" in older translations; but when you look it up, it is refering to the Messiah). In Numbers 24:16, Baalam prophesies that a Messiah will come to deliver Israel from her enemies. Numbers is part of . To not teach Messiah is to not fulfill the commandment of . It is not a subject than can be avoided. What must be decided is whether or not Yeshua was Messiah or if we are to wait for another. There are more than 300 prophesies which validate Yeshua as Messiah. www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm . There are six prophesies by which Israel rejects Him (those prophesies we believe will be fulfilled in His second coming- based upon the resurrection of the dead, which even Jews confess as possible but reject as a Messianic reality). Would it be wise to ask him to teach your family what the Tanakh teaches about the Messiah? Much of our position comes from Isaiah 53. Such may a good place for you to ask your husband to explain to you how he defines his Messiah. Praying for you. Mark |
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Post by Mark on Sept 17, 2005 17:22:47 GMT -8
I have a couple of questions.
Is your husband Jewish? Was he raised in a Jewish home?
What sort of fellowship did you attend for four years?
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Post by yearn2learn on Sept 18, 2005 3:00:49 GMT -8
I have a couple of questions. Is your husband Jewish? Was he raised in a Jewish home? What sort of fellowship did you attend for four years? Thank you for your reply again! No, my husband is not Jewish nor raised in that way but anybody now would guess that it was possible that he was. He's rather a deep thinker and when some things didn't quite make sense, he turned away. We attended Calvary Christian Fellowship, a non-denominational church having the Word of God as the standard by which all things are judged. They taught verse by verse, chapter by chapter and book by book. If you've ever heard of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, CA - that's who they are in fellowship with. |
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Post by Mark on Sept 18, 2005 3:24:49 GMT -8
I wrote a paper (about 30 pages) that is reproduced and distributed by many messianic fellowships around the country. It is free to copy and distribute and is specifically written to those jaded against Christianity because of hypocrisy and contradiction (though it doesn't come out and say that specifically). If you have MS Word or Wordperfect I can e-mail it to you as an attachment. Many of us are in a similar position as your husband. And, had we not been led to Messianic Judaism, we might likely be in exactly the same place. Your husband is not at all unique in his convictions (except that he has chosen to remain observant. Most people throw out the whole thing! With an amish background (I went back and read some of your other posts), he may feel particularly betrayed by empty ritualism- the social pressure of a devoutly religious society (though I understand that doesn't mean the same thing to the amish as it might mean to others). Ironically, when I first began to see contradiction and hypopcrisy in the Church, the first place that I looked was to the amish. |
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Post by Mercedes on Sept 19, 2005 10:24:08 GMT -8
Shalom Yearn2learn, Take courage, I started out in the same place with my husband 20 years ago. We were both Spanish Catholics when we met and at the birth of our first son I Found Yeshua and his Sabbath and Holy Days. Next began tumult and anger with my husband throwing away my booklets about holy days and not allowing me to keep sabbath. In tears I came to Yeshua who rebuked me! He said I was the one who deceived my husband in that he chose a woman from his own culture and faith to share with his children and I changed all his hopes and was not compassionate to his personal loss. This changed EVERYTHING. When Yeshua said "with the Lord there is no divorce"(loose para) the Latin community has for centuries taken this to heart. Divorce is not an option. So we struggled. The Lord also told me "Stop fighting him because it is ME he is fighting," I must support him in his struggle. So I told my husband that I was wrong for trying to force my faith on him and from that day we started bargaining peaceably, I was allowed to keep the home Kosher because he said that made sense to him, and I put up the Christmas tree for him but I did not have to tell my kids that Santa was real but rather an ancient folk tale like many others. Have compassion for your husband and you will see love poured out over your family. And if you cannot attend a messianic group attend with your husband as a beautiful lamp of Messiah set in a dark corner, maybe that is Yeshua's will for you. Even if you do not mention the Messiah they will all see that there is something different about you. Truly Messiah always shines even with out words. Lastly, do not feel like being around people who deny Messiah is the worst thing. We live among people who Sing, bumper sticker, tattoo the name "Messiah" all around but for most it is actually the ANTI MESSIAH that they cling to because of the clever deception. So "No Messiah" or "Anti Messiah" pray for them both! By the way 20 years later my husband has given up Christmas, Easter and taken the Lord's holy days in stead. It took about 17 years for him, so if the Lord was so patient with him then I was willing to wait a lifetime for him if that was the appointed time  Blessings, Mercedes |
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Post by Mercedes on Sept 19, 2005 14:00:13 GMT -8
P.S. I also tell my sons that the gift of "Long Suffering" is the gift all claim to have yet no one seems to open and often writes on it "return to sender." The Lord would not have given us this gift if he did not expect us to use it. |
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Post by Mark on Sept 19, 2005 16:12:20 GMT -8
mercedes,
you're a blessing to me. Thank you very, very much for your post.
Mark
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Sept 19, 2005 16:44:02 GMT -8
Mercedes, I would agree wholeheartedly. When I first started on my journey of Judaism (the roots of my family heritage), my wife was not supportive. I kept trying to point her to certain verses in the , and said, "See, this is what we should be doing." In other words, I was trying to force her into being observant when she was not ready. It took several years, and I had to completely back off, but she did come around (I think it also helped that I encouraged her to read the Scriptures for herself  ). Today we keep Kashrut, the Moedim, and are as -observant as we can be outside of Eretz Yisrael. |
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Post by yearn2learn on Sept 20, 2005 3:19:46 GMT -8
Thank you all for allowing the Lord to speak through you! What encouragement you have given!! Mercedes,I needed that reminder about long suffering. Thank you! That's wonderful to hear that your husband has come to the truth. How awesome to be in unity!! Often I think, "If he (my husband) could just sit down and talk with someone that could shed some light on all his questioning and doubt, then he will change." However, I need to trust God that in his time and way something will take place to show him the truth. I believe that I've got a lot of learning and growing to do through all this. God has so much work to do in me. I'm definitely one who's got changing to do too. Actually, if it wasn't for my husband going the direction he did, I wouldn't be concerened about observance like I am now. To rest in knowing that God has His plan and I need to wait on Him and be sure I'm being the light I need to be (that's where I fail). Mercedes, I like how you worded that! Mark, messimom, Mercedes & Netzar Y'hudi, thanks for taking time out of your day to respond!!! It's much appreciated! |
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Post by yearn2learn on Sept 20, 2005 3:34:40 GMT -8
I wrote a paper (about 30 pages) that is reproduced and distributed by many messianic fellowships around the country. It is free to copy and distribute and is specifically written to those jaded against Christianity because of hypocrisy and contradiction (though it doesn't come out and say that specifically). If you have MS Word or Wordperfect I can e-mail it to you as an attachment. Thank you for sending the paper that you wrote. I've printed off the papers and have been reading when I get the chance. A few pages to go yet. [glow=red,2,300]That is a blessing![/glow] I'm anxious to send it to my Dad! He's been stuggling too but not to the extent as my husband. I wonder how many people have that nagging in their mind that something isn't right but they just stay where they are at because it's too uncomfortable to change. It's what they have always known. That's the wonderful thing about my husband, he's willing to make his stand no matter what others think. He just needs to make his stand in the right place. My husband has been away almost 2 weeks on a hunting trip, but once he comes back I plan to ask him if he'll read it. I think it will do some good! Thanks again! |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Sept 22, 2005 15:41:49 GMT -8
Shalom chaverim,
This truly is a difficult subject and you all have spoken well!
"'Six days shall work be done: but on the seventh day is a Shabbat of solemn rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no manner of work. It is a Shabbat to YHVH in all your dwellings.”
- Vayikra (Lev.) 23:2
Berechot b’Yeshua,
Reuel
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observance, just not about Yeshua as Messiah.
