|
|
Post by Blake on Jul 1, 2005 6:30:16 GMT -8
I was wondering if there was a command in the  against marking the body with tattoos or if it is simply banned because it is a custom of pagans. |
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Jul 2, 2005 5:10:34 GMT -8
The specific verse in Leviticus 19:28 and therein lies a great discussion to which I believe there will be endless debate (though likely not in a forum such as this).
There are two camps- one which believes that this is only in reference to pagan idolatry. This same view permits shaving one's beard since the command is that one does not mar the corners of his beard "for the dead". There was a specific ritual in the worship of Molech where a man would pull his beard tight and cut away a patch of his skin as a sacrifice of his own human flesh. Boiling a kid in its mothers milk was also a specific ritual that was forbidden by Adonai. All of this fits under the heading of idolatry: not following after the practices of the people whom Israel was driving out of the land.
The second camp considers putting any kind of marking in your flesh as a defacement of Adonai's creation. This should include pierced ear rings ( or any other sort of piercings, I suppose).
Personally, whenever I am faced with this sort of question, I go back to the general rule: to walk in the ways of Adonai (Deut 28:9), refered to by the Apostle Paul, to do everything, in word or deed as an outpouring of your honor toward Messiah (Col. 3:17). This leans me strongly toward the second camp- He made our bodies just the way that He likes them. We ought to maintain them as well as we can; but not make "improvements" upon them. Would I suggest that hair coloring and make-up fit into this same catagory? I have to admit that it's not a problem for me... yet. My wife doesn't wear make-up. She doesn't need it! My daughters are still pretty young and we've discussed ear piercings without drawing any conclusions as yet. The point that I'm trying to make is that it is easy for us to be condemning of the man that has a battleship tattooed across his forehead and rubber-bands sticking out of hsi cheek, while we work very hard to change the way we look in other ways. If you're not comfortable with including some of the definitions of "marking one's flesh", then I suggest that you are closer to the first camp. But, I will never condemn a person because of the decision he (or she) makes in this area.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jul 2, 2005 8:28:46 GMT -8
The context of Vayikra 19:27-28 seems to be referring to acts of mourning associcated with paganism, thus you end up with another two schools of thought on this issue...
1. Since the context of mitzvot refers to mourning rites, if one were to shave the sides of their head or clip the edges of their beard, or tattoo themselves, it would be acceptable for them to do so as long any of those things weren't done while in mourning.
~~This is the Karaite position~~
2. While the context is mourning, the other school of thought states that such things are associated with idolatry and not to be practiced at all.
~~This is the common position in Rabbinic Judaism~~
My position is this:
The context is mourning, and for someone to shave the sides of their head, or clip the edges of their beard, or mark themselves with tattoos, these are indicators that someone is in mourning in association with that pagan rite(whether they actually are or not), and as such are to be avoided.
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 2, 2005 9:48:14 GMT -8
"'You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you. I am YHVH."
- Vayikra (Lev.) 19:28
I would have to agree with Rabbinic Judaism here. I believe that the practice of tattooing is a pagan custom and should at the very least be avoided under the admonition of Yermiyahu (Jer.) 10:1-2....
"Hear the word which YHVH speaks to you, house of Yisra'el! Thus says YHVH, "Don't learn the way of the nations..."
It certainly was not a practice of the Holy men of G'd. At the very least we don't see one instance where a man of G'd has a tatoo. If they didn't do it...we should probably follow that example.
Shalom chaverim,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 2, 2005 23:21:06 GMT -8
Post by messimom on Jul 2, 2005 23:21:06 GMT -8
The people used their jewelry to help make the tabernacle in the wilderness. Exodus 35:22: So they came, both men and women; all who were of a willing heart brought brooches and earrings and signet rings and armlets, all sorts of gold objects, every man dedicating an offering of gold to the LORD In Ezekiel YHVH is speaking of his love and (initial) engagement of Y'srael. Here YHVH not only condones jewelry, he lavishes her with it. YHVH's only objection comes in vs 15 when it states that Y'srael begins to enjoy her beauty more than He who gave it to her and melts it down to worship false gods. : Ezekiel 12: (vs)11: And I decked you with ornaments, and put bracelets on your arms, and a chain on your neck. 12: And I put a ring on your nose, and earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head. 13: Thus you were decked with gold and silver; and your raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and embroidered cloth; you ate fine flour and honey and oil. You grew exceedingly beautiful, and came to regal estate. 14: And your renown went forth among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through the splendor which I had bestowed upon you, says the Lord GOD. 15: "But you trusted in your beauty, and played the harlot because of your renown, and lavished your harlotries on any passer-by. 16: You took some of your garments, and made for yourself gaily decked shrines, and on them played the harlot; the like has never been, nor ever shall be. 17: You also took your fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself images of men, and with them played the harlot... So, every main instance I have found about jewely being a negative issue is when it is used for idol worship or pagan practices and the real problem lies within the person--their intentions I suppose. Of tattoos my husband are still not decided. I believe the only mention of tattoos by name as someone stated above(Leviticus 19:28), is meant in the context of idol worship and pagan practices, you always have to look within the context of the rest of the chapter and book and so on, and I believe-to be the "black sheep" here, that YHVH is opposed to tattoos on behalf of the dead and mourning. Notzari Y'hudi said: And as said above if it is because of "appearance" of mourning or practicing a pagan ritual, then I would like to respectfully ask, when is YHVH more concerned with appearances than actualities? Also in Isaiah 44:5 it says :5: This one will say, `I am the LORD's,' another will call himself by the name of Jacob, and another will write on his hand, `The LORD's,' and surname himself by the name of Israel." So here, YHVH is saying that people will mark themselves as "branded" by YHVH. And as far as I know, that is a main belief by many-that you are owned or branded by your tattooer/tattoo. So in this frame of thought, a tattoo stating that you are a bondservant of Yeshua or YHVH might not be that bad. I do not by any means consider myself an expert in this field, just my two cents. By the way, I have 9 piercings including one in my nose, and my husband has 4 including one in his tongue. So I realize that I may be biased because I would like to believe I am not sinning here....hmmm  As far as tattooing goes, the above scriptures are all I have, and it still leaves the answer ambiguous if they are to be interpreted as I have. And no, neither myself or husband have any tattoos, but my husband would like one, so this is a subject of interest for us before he takes that road. |
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 4, 2005 11:04:45 GMT -8
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 4, 2005 11:04:45 GMT -8
For the most part I agree with your thoughts about jewelry. But, in regards to keeping other commandments such as the prohibition of getting tattoos, it is better to be safe than sorry (Rom.14:23b)...also if it is not a commandment to have a tattoo and it is commonly held as a Biblical prohibtion among many people, the following passage comes to mind...
"Abstain from all appearance of evil." - 1Thes. 5:22
These are just my thoughts on the matter. I have friends that have tattoos and I don't condemn them for it. But, I myself would not get one, nor would allow my children to do so.
Shalom b'Yeshua,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jul 5, 2005 6:17:28 GMT -8
Agreed. Rabbi Eleazar was killed for refusing to take part in the appearance of evil. However, that being said, I do believe that the states that these are negative mitzvot, and are to be observed as such. |
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Jul 6, 2005 3:31:32 GMT -8
I know a fellow who has a tattoo around his left ring finger. It is his wife's name and it IS his wedding band- a pledge that as long as it remained on his finger, he would remain true to his wife. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 6, 2005 14:02:21 GMT -8
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jul 6, 2005 14:02:21 GMT -8
Hmm... This would definitely be an issue for a Beit Din. I'd like to hear a couple opinions on this before posting mine.
|
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 6, 2005 17:55:54 GMT -8
Post by Rick on Jul 6, 2005 17:55:54 GMT -8
I have a few tattoos that I got in my younger wilder days, before my conversion. This is a topic that I have been struggling with. I want to add a scripture verse to each of them and use them as an evangelism tool/segway to sharing the Gospel. I came out of the biker culture,(25yr rider), and know many in the lifestyle. Sharing with the lost among the bikers is an ongoing endeavor of mine. One is a picture of a man,(biker), riding an eagle. I wanted to add the verse from Isa 40:31; But those who wait for the LORD will renew their strength. They will mount up with wings like eagles. They will run, and not be weary. They will walk, and not faint. another is a picture of a winged Harley engine, the heads of the engine are skulls minus the jaw. I was going to add the verse from Pro 16:25; Sometimes what seems right is really a road to death. The third I wanted to alter is a medicine skull w/a medicine shield background, that I wanted to add the verse from Rev 21:8; But the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, fornicators, drug users, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death." I did not get them to commemorate funerals or fallen brothers, (as per the pagan practice), they are my own original art that I had applied and a couple were redone over about a 10 year period by three different tattoo artists. However, I am conflicted, In regards to the mitzvah. Since I had the tattoos before I began my walk in , would I be disobedient by altering them to illustrate a passage of scripture? Thoughts or comments? Le Mah'An Ahavat Y'srael Rick |
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 6, 2005 23:06:08 GMT -8
Post by messimom on Jul 6, 2005 23:06:08 GMT -8
"Abstain from all appearance of evil." - 1Thes. 5:22 Good quote, thank you for that verse. In your opinion should we be concerned with the ancient appearances of evil, or current day. As far as I know tattoos are not (at least in American culture) attached to pagan/evil practices. so are they still an appearance of evil? I'm interested to know peoples opinions. If we continue to attach the label of "pagan practice/ evil" to tattooing, then I would say, yes they are definitely wrong. If however, current practices and cultural understanding of tattoeing has changed so that no one views tattooing as evil or pagan, then is it still to be considered an "appearance of evil"? Shalom, Messimom |
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 7, 2005 17:16:02 GMT -8
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 7, 2005 17:16:02 GMT -8
Good question...We can get into trouble when we start interpreting the intended meaning behind the commandments for the purpose of looking for ways to get around them. I believe for many of these commandments there are many reasons that we may not be aware of. In other words, there may be another reason besides the pagan aspect of it all. G'd does not have to always explain all of His reasoning behind the mitzvot. But, we are expected to trust Him. Of course this is debatable issue, but if it is not G-d's good and perfect will for His children to get tattoos, it is like justifying something as long as we are somehow setting it apart and making it holy. For example, I have heard of people saying that it is acceptable to go out and do a bunch of work on Sabbath as long as it is helping someone. The logic goes something like, "Jesus said that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath". Of course there are exceptions when it comes to directly preserving life. But, in most circumstances people that talk like this are not directly preserving life. The problem is, whom defines what is good? In this situation it is obviously the person making the statement, and not G'd. For we already know that it is not good to work on the Sabbath because G’d commanded us not to. By doing this we start doing what is right in our own eyes by defining what is good and what is not good for ourselves. The same logic goes for most of the Christian holidays such as Christmas and Easter. These practices have there origin in paganism, but most people today do not celebrate them because of paganism. Nonetheless, the practice stem from it and we see the prophet Yermeyahu (Jer.) warning us from partaking in such customs and I believe the following passage covers tattoos as well… “Thus says YHVH, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain…” - Yermeyahu (Jer.) 10:2-3 Because we can safely conclude that the custom of tattoos is not of Israelite origin and has not originated from , the only other option is that it is a heathen custom of which we are not to partake of. Or, at least that is how my logic goes. But, I understand the situation that many find themselves in as they have already received tattoos before they knew any better. If it was me, I would either have them removed or cover them up. Our best witness is to keep the commandments of G’d. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 7, 2005 20:48:16 GMT -8
Post by BarvazGumy on Jul 7, 2005 20:48:16 GMT -8
Wow, I hesitate to say anything, but I would suggest that "Abstain from all appearance of evil" (1Thes. 5:22) be reread in Greek before using it as a prooftext here. If I may say so, this is a very poor translation of the true meaning.
|
|
|
|
Tattoos
Jul 7, 2005 22:52:40 GMT -8
Post by messimom on Jul 7, 2005 22:52:40 GMT -8
Very true, I agree. His ways are way higher than our ways.
Messimom
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 8, 2005 9:34:51 GMT -8
Of course everything is debatable, and I would not use it as a proof text, only something to consider.... it is at the very least good wisdom.  Shalom b'Yeshua, Reuel |
|
against marking the body with tattoos or if it is simply banned because it is a custom of pagans.
As far as tattooing goes, the above scriptures are all I have, and it still leaves the answer ambiguous if they are to be interpreted as I have. And no, neither myself or husband have any tattoos, but my husband would like one, so this is a subject of interest for us before he takes that road. 
