Commonwealth/Church: Two Distinct Entities?

[Mpossoff]

What is the point of observance then, and how does this line up with G-d's word about following all of His commandments?

Below is a quote from a commentary. Some here may not agree with it but I do:

We don't keep to in order to be saved...as in earning our salvation by how much we can accomplish via the . But neither will we be "saved" [in the final sense] if we have been given an opportunity in life to live out this -walk and we don't. That having been said, we are all graded on a curve; none of us measures up to Yeshua's perfect life and standard. So we must fall back on God's mercy and on the sacrifice that Yeshua made for us because we all far short. And, in that context of grace, we strive in the Spirit to live Messiah's life through our own lives...and that translates into . Nevertheless, committed Christians who believe that the was nailed to the cross still live a -based lifestyle, although they may not call it that. They are still observing more than 70% of all do-able commandments, according to one study I read. That isn't an "A," but neither is it cause to throw them into the Lake of F-F-F-Fire. Let's each please remember that the vast majority here were led to this -walk from our Evangelical Christian backgrounds. So we journeyed here...and none of us has arrived. The same can be said for committed born again Christians. If they love God and serve Him, that is . And, just as He led us to understand in a deeper sense than we did when we were just reading "the Law" because we had to, because it was in the Bible, so Christians around us are in all kinds of different stages of growth...within the grace of our Lord. If we stay open then we will learn and accomplish even more in this -walk. And if Christians who already have eternal life remain open, they might even learn that what they are doing by way of works are actually . And they may even come to call it that some day (like we did)...and to learn and accomplish even more in their -walks.

I don't like when he said That having been said, we are all graded on a curve; none of us measures up to Yeshua's perfect life and standard. He could have left being graded on a curve part out but I'm not a sticklar on words per say and I get the jist of what the writer is saying.

The grace precedes, but (when possible) the works MUST follow. Or else we have biblical reason to doubt a -less person's salvation:

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.... Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.... Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.... Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1Joh 3:4-15).

So IMHO what we need to do as a community is I think it is imperative for today's Messianic community to figure out why we are doing what we are doing. What is the spiritual motivation for us becoming observant? Too many that I have interacted with have never answered this question inclusing myself.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

Marc,

Nobody is saying that they are aliens. What is being said is that they reject the idea of being part of the commonwealth.

My whole ministry is dedicated to teaching Gentiles this fact.

The problem is that they think it is One New Christian Man.

Yeah my ministry it seems also is teaching Gentiles this fact. I'm involved on some discussion boards that are mostly Christian and my goal is to teach Christians this fact. I'm pretty well accepted for the most part and the biggest obstacle is that Christians don't know what 'being under the law" is. They say we're not under the law because Christ is our righteousness which is true but fail to see that the Law has a dual nature if you will. They believe for the most part that the Law was 'designed' if you will to bring us to Messiah but fail to see that it doesn't stop there.

So they see as being part of the commonwealth as being Jewish or you have to be a Jew to be apart of the commonwealth. Do you have to ethnically Jewish to be apart of the commonwealth? Not according to the Gospels. But Judaism of today says you do in a physical sense of the commonwealth. Are my eyes on the physical or the World to Come? Or how about I rephrase that to the Commonwealth to Come? Hmmm.

We're not going to the World to Come because the World to Come is going to come to Earth. The bible says Jerusalem will be the capitol of the World to Come and the King will be ruling from there. Hmmm, with that being said will there still be a Spain or United States?

Here's a question...

The goal is not Olam Haba. If one does not desire fellowship with HaShem in Olam Hazeh (this present age), why would they want it in Olam Haba (the World to Come)?

Could this mean?....

The prophet Isaiah describes a great pilgrimage going to Jerusalem. The pilgrims were not just Israelites. He saw people of ALL nations.

Isaiah said: "Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the arm"

ALL nations will pilgram to Jerusalem to worship the King, learn His , and keep His Commandments.

In that day the whole world will be keeping . All nations will make a pilgrimmage to Jerusalem because Jerusalem will be the capitol city of ALL nations. The kingdom of Israel will be universal. All men will serve the King of Israel according to the of Israel.

Knowing that we will be keeping the biblical calendar in Messiah's Kingdom it is clear that keeping the calendar is part of Kingdom living. In that day ALL mankind will keep the Sabbath. When we sit down to eat with the Master, the menu options will certaintly not include shrimp or ham.

Wouldn't we do well to let the rule of the Kingdom dictate how we, servants of the King, live now?

In that day all will keep . The shall go forth from Zion, a light to ALL nations and a Law of ALL men.

If the is the Law of the Kingdom, shouldn't all the subjects of the Kingdom obey that Law?

As the prophet Isaiah has said, shouldn't we turn our hearts toward that NOW?

Why wait until that day? If it's going to be as Isaiah said in that day why should we wait?

After all Yeshua's message was: Repent the Kingdom of Heaven is NOW

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Is 2:2-4
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Is 66:23
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD



Marc

[Prodigal Girl]

One question: where will the borders of Israel be or won't there be borders anymore?

[Mpossoff]

prodigalgirl said:

One question: where will the borders of Israel be or won't there be borders anymore?

good question.

Is 2:2-4
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

Where are the nations and people's coming from that are making pilgrimmage to the Lords' House?

It's not about going to Heaven right?

When we cast in terms of "heaven" or "hell" we are putting our eyes far too low. It is "With HaShem, or without HaShem." Living is "dancing" with the Almighty. It is about RELATIONSHIP.

So I want to really be with Him, touch Him, dance with Him.

Hmmm, what does that mean as per your question?

Don't we want to 'go back to the Garden'. Have a relationship like Adam and Eve did with the Lord?

Good question.

Marc

[Prodigal Girl]

I am inclined to think one government, no borders. I know it says in one of the prophecies there will be so many that the land of Israel (whatever that may be) will not be able to hold them all. If there is world peace, what would be the purpose of borders? They would become obselete. One Ruler.

[Mpossoff]

prodigalgirl said:

I am inclined to think one government, no borders. I know it says in one of the prophecies there will be so many that the land of Israel (whatever that may be) will not be able to hold them all. If there is world peace, what would be the purpose of borders? They would become obselete. One Ruler.

True.

If we are His subjects, we will obey Him. Obedience is my part of our RELATIONSHIP.

If someone is not His subject, why would they want to live in His Kingdom, now or later?

This is a 'commonwealth' question that possibly we should help our christian brother and sisters understand?

Let's try to help them understand that fellowship with Him is right now which is and the same ALL will be keeping.

Now's the million dollar question. How can someone who is at least not on the path of observance NOW be His subject in the World to Come? Or could they be not on the path and then become His subjects in the World to Come and therefore will keep in the World to Come?

OK I believe that according to scripture when you die you go to Paradise, could be Abraham's Bosom. It's where you go and 'rest' like you never rested before. You rest in Paradise so when Yeshua comes back as He's coming He takes all the spirits, the spirits that are departed from their bodies that have fallen asleep. He brings all those with Him that have fallen asleep(spirits) and they desend with Him to New Jerusalem. When His foot touches down, the 1st ressurection takes place. Where all of the righteous, their bodies are raised from the days of Adam and the spirits go right into the bodies in a 'twinking of an eye' and you get yourself a new body, a spiritual body.

With that being said do those that were believers but didn't keep be resurrected into new bodies that will keep ?

And an important point. Could Christians be keeping alot of and don't even know it? I mean as an example they don't keep Sabbath for the most part. Is there a 'grade' if you will, seriously.

Let's say that I keep the Commandments but don't love thy neighbor. My christian friend who also Loves God , loves thy neighbor. He gives to charity, helps the old ladies with their shop packages. He's got loving thy neighbor but I don't.

Get what I'm saying.

This is hard to dicern because this can flip flop.


Marc

[Yitzchak]

If we are His subjects, we will obey Him. Obedience is my part of our RELATIONSHIP.

Very true, and thus the reason for this post. Obedience is of vital importance in our relationship. This weeks portion speaks to this subject.

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the L-RD thy G-d require of thee, but to fear the L-RD thy G-d, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve the L-RD thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul;

If someone is not His subject, why would they want to live in His Kingdom, now or later?

This is true as well. However, we are saying that those who are Christians and are in the Church have a desire to obey. They have the desire to be part of His kingdom now and later.

So, if they are subjects now, then they must learn that the kingdom now, and the kingdom then will all be subject to the , as Eikev states above.

This is a 'commonwealth' question that possibly we should help our christian brother and sisters understand?

My present strategy is walking them through Ephesians 2, and then showing them where in Gen 35 this principle is first spoken of.

However, they almost always respond that we are not supposed to become part of Israel. There is just this total misunderstanding of what is physical Israel, and what is the commonwealth.

I think Prodigal was right when she spoke about them taking what their pastor's say as gospel. There are simply not enough Bereans. I tell our people that they must not accept what I say, but should go back and check and make sure that what I am teaching from the scriptures is correct.

Let's try to help them understand that fellowship with Him is right now which is and the same ALL will be keeping.

I think we are all trying to do this. However, there are those who simply flat out reject anything we have to say because they hold on dearly to their precious notion of the church, and nothing else can be true for them.

These are the people that I have the most concern for.

Now's the million dollar question. How can someone who is at least not on the path of observance NOW be His subject in the World to Come? Or could they be not on the path and then become His subjects in the World to Come and therefore will keep in the World to Come?

I think the point is that we are all in process, as was shown in that quote that you put up earlier.

We are seeing a great influx of people from the church who are coming to these conclusions on their own. I had two young men show up a few months ago. They were from a Baptist church, and could not reconcile some of the things they saw in scripture regarding . They went to the pastor, and he was unable to sufficiently answer, so they ended up at our doorstep.

This is happening all over, so I have to assume that the Ruach is beginning to use us in this area, but is also doing a sovereign work as well.

With that being said do those that were believers but didn't keep be resurrected into new bodies that will keep ?

Good question.

And an important point. Could Christians be keeping alot of and don't even know it? I mean as an example they don't keep Sabbath for the most part. Is there a 'grade' if you will, seriously.

You see this is the weightier questions. For instance, you brought up the subject of obedience earlier. Now, from a Judaic perspective we know how important the Sabbath is and was. One who broke the Sabbath would at the least be cut off from his people, and at the worst, be put to death. Pretty serious.

Now, we know that we have been redeemed from the curse, which requires our death. However, this does not release us from observance. The Church can say that the Sabbath has changed, but the fact remains that they do not even observe on their changed day according the the biblical mandate for keeping Sabbath.

Going to church, and then going home to mow the lawn is not G-d's way.

What about G-d's appointed feasts, which they ignore.

Let's say that I keep the Commandments but don't love thy neighbor.

You would be like the religious leaders at the time of Yeshua that he rebuked.

My christian friend who also Loves God , loves thy neighbor. He gives to charity, helps the old ladies with their shop packages. He's got loving thy neighbor but I don't.

Get what I'm saying.

This is hard to dicern because this can flip flop.


Marc

Very true. However, keep in mind that the first is "V’ahavta et adonai elohecha, b’chol-l’vavcha, Uvchol-nafsh’cha, uvchol-me’odecha.

I again refer you back to this weeks Parsha, and the question that G-d asks, "What do I require of you"?


Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mpossoff]

Yitzchak and all. Been discussing this with some fellow Messianic believers. Then the conversation moved in salvation because they seem to go hand in hand.

This is what we came up with.

What are your thoughts?

When we cast in terms of "heaven" or "hell" we are putting our eyes far too low. It is Yeshua, or without Yeshua." Living is "dancing" with Yeshua. It is about RELATIONSHIP.

What is being saved mean?

"I'm saved and I'm going to heaven"?

If that's the thought we are putting our eyes, minds and Spirit too low.

When you think 'Hellenistically' or Greek that's what we have been taught..."I'm saved and I'm going to heaven" or "If we are truly IN CHRIST then we are already where He is at"

Not according to Yeshua. Just because you are saved doesn't mean you will spend eternity with Him. Notice I said with Him.

You might be saved but there is also the possibility of one looking from the outside in, in the Kingdom.

"Depart from me you workers of iniquity...."

"Knashing of teeth"

These don't imply that someone is going to 'fry' for eternity.

What He means depart from me is "get away you can't spend eternity with me". But it doesn't mean you will 'fry' forever.

Here's an alagory:

We're at the banquest table with Yeshua. David, Moses, Elijah, Abraham and other saints are eating with us. There will those that will be looking in on the banquet and they will be 'knashing their teeth" because they will be saying to themselves "Man, I could be eating at the banquet table but now it's too late, I'm a worker of iniquity(lawlessness). Wish I would have known when I was in my mortal body and in the physical world."

As you can see those looking in aren't being 'fried' they are saved but when they were their earthly bodies they set their minds, hearts far too low by saying "I'm saved and going to heaven".

Now the question is those that were lawless... Who will be held responsible? The ones that taught lawlessness? The ones that listened because they believed the pastor and preacher?

I am going to do some study on that.

This has to do with the 'commonwealth' as well as you can see.

Marc

[Mark]

First, I want to say that I have really enjoyed following this discussion. The terms and understanding that we are burdening through in the text are simply read over, by most without attempting to understand. "commonwealth", to the Christian, simply means "I'm in." It doesn't necessarily matter to what, it's just a good warm fuzzy knowing that I'm not left out.

Here's a natural problem when we begin to look a little closer. I enjoy a good ride as well as the next person; but I have the potential of going berserk with claustrophobia. When one person looks at a carnival ride such as a ferris wheel or roller-coaster, they see freedom- literally being launched beyond the extremes of what is normally possible. When I look at these rides, the first thing I see is restraint: being fastened securely to a devise that will render me immobile. I have to consciously overcome this fear of restraint if I am going to survive my children yanking me from one ride to the next, without allowing my feet to remember what ground feels like.

We love the word "commonwealth". It is beautifully inviting. Yet, the Greek word from which it has been translated is the word politeous. It is the word we have transliterated in our tongue as politics. Ouch. Restraint. Anyone feel it? So when enter into this carnival of faith (if I may be so irreverent) we kids see the amazing privilege and opportunity to enter into a new experience of worship and relationship. Yet, others, looking at the same ride see nothing but restraint.

In the late 1800s, particularly, a fellow named Henny (followed by a guy named Oxford) came up with a new idea. He went to the carnival and said, I'd like to ride your rides; but I'm claustrophobic, so I don't want to wear any restraints. Of course, he was told that was not possible; but Henny had a lot of money; so he bought his own carnival and tool out the seat belts. This carnival is called dispensationalism.

Notice that the basic description of what Henny is doing and what Henny has rejected is virtually the same: they are both "the carnival". In the same way, the Greek word ekklesia is used to describe both the Christian Church and the Jewish synagogue. If you were to say, in Rome an 125 AD, "I am going to ekklesia," one would not know if you were gong to church or going to synagogue since the term was equally applied to both.

This sectation has continued without discrimination. Actually, we quickly run out of viable terms. I used to carpool with a Mormon bishop. Whenever I or he spoke of "the church" we were referring to the Mormon Church. Whenever we spoke of my congregation, it was named specifically. The wonderfully awful thing about language is that you can use any word you want to mean anything, so long as all parties understand the rules.

The tragic thing about what we have come to define as "the Church" has largely changed the rules. Politics means restraint; yet, the one other time it is found in the New Testament, it has been translated "freedom". In Acts 22:28, it is the word that the Roman Centurion use to describe his Roman citizenship.

Messiah Yeshua told a story of a wedding feast to which all the worthless and homeless had been invited. Yet, in Matthew 22:11-12, one of the guests was ejected from the feast because he had not come properly dressed. The significance of this is completely overlooked in the Church. Yes, all are invited; but don't come as you are. We are welcome to come in and be a part of the commonwealth; but we are not welcome to redefine what the wedding feast should look like. We come to a saving relationship with Adonai on His terms and by His definition; and He has chosen the Jewish people to maintain and protect that definition (Romans 3:2).

Sadly, the each Church denomination condemns every other with the words of Messiah in Matthew 7:21-23.

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yet, the word that is translated "iniquity" in Greek is ah-nomos : lawlessness, in context, torahlessness.