Question about Mikvah

[ad4e]

A bit of back ground 1st- I was raised Methodist- as in "baptized" shortly after my birth. I was sprinkled with water from the River Jordan.

The summer before I was married I was Baptized by immersion (in a baptist church) And then once after that when joining a church that required it for membership.

My husband did a Mikvah this past fall and the congregation now sees him as "one born in the land" (was saved and baptized by immersion before this also)

I have not Mikvahed yet - call me overly cautious but I want to to learn as much as I can about this group and all it means before I "dive in" so to speak.

I was under the impression that when you gave your life to Yeshua that you were "grafted in" and considered "as one born in the Land"

What does a Mikvah have to do with it?

I fully believe that we all get Home to Heaven with Abba that there is not going to be Baptists over here and Messianic over there and so on- we are gonna be one BIG happy family (SOOoo looking forward to that!)

My husband is less then thrilled that I have delayed my Mikvah.
When I do spiritual things I do them for the Lord, to please Him- not for a church or dare I say it, even my husband.

What pleases the Adonai comes above all.

I guess what it comes down to is I don't see a need to get Baptized or Mikvahed again. I thought that Baptism was a picture of Christ's death, burial and resurrection - He only did that once and I have already been baptized by immerion once more then I really think I needed to.

Maybe I'm missing something here-comments please!

[Prodigal Girl]

There are tons of groups around that will say that they want you to do it again in front of their group. My understanding is that biblically, Mikvah is/was not a one time thing, but something that is/was engaged in a person more than once. I personally would not sweat it; go ahead and do it for your group/husband. But this is just my opinion. Baptism/ Mikvah are not what saves you; is is just a symbolic representation.

[ad4e]

I'll think about it Prodigal Girl.
Is there some place in the that talks about Mikvah in regards to becoming a Jew?

[Prodigal Girl]

As far as Mikvah in regards to becoming a Jew is concerned, as it is practiced today, that appears to be a practice that has evolved over time due to oral law. Biblically speaking, Mikvah was used to "cleanse" from ritual impurity brought about by various normal occurances such as bodily fluids, contact with the dead, etc. which can be read about in the , first five books of Moses. Because ritual impurity happened frequently and rather easily, mikvah was preformed also frequently. These are all things that gentiles would not have received mikvah for before they came to the God of Israel, because mikvah was not part of their practice; it was a new, unusual thing for them. In order to participate fully in temple worship, and holidays or at least biblically speaking the Passover, they would have had to go through mikvah and normally circumcision. Whether circumcision was required right away, or indeed at all, was hotly debated at the time, as reflected in the new testament and other primary sources from the period.

[ad4e]

Scripture references would be helpful, please.

[Prodigal Girl]

Which specific statement did you want a scriptural reference for? Discussion of Jewish practices usually involves using extra-biblical references as well, which show the historical and cultural context of some of the biblical issues and references.

[ad4e]

Where does it mention Mikvah directly in the ?

[Prodigal Girl]

OK this is my understanding, everyone out there correct me if I am wrong:
It will not use the word mikvah unless you are reading the Bible in Hebrew, or are using the "Complete Jewish Bible" in English which Stern translated. In the English versions, which are translations of ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, it will say wash, bathe or immerse, and in the Greek translations it will say bautizo, (uncertain of spelling), which in Greek just meant immerse, in at least the "New Testament" writings, which is translated to English as baptize, which after it was translated into English, acquired a more strictly religious connotation. I do not know if the Greek translations of the Old Testament in use in the second temple period used the word bautizo. In the rabbinic writings, the word mikvah also came to embrace more additional traditions. It is an example of one distinctly Hebraic practice, which Gentiles were taught when they came to believe and follow the God of Israel; the ritual "cleansings" for impurities, expected of all who follow the God of Israel when they become ritually impure, as Gentiles would of course be ritually impure as a rule when they first came to the God of Israel, because they would not know anything about what causes ritual impurity, not having been taught yet. The New Testament practices at the time, simply reflected certain of the basic Jewish teachings of the time, related to ritual washings and immersions for impurities. I will try to list all the references I can find related to ritual washings, and baptism, later when I get time. Until then, you can use any on-line or other Bible concordance to look them up.

[ad4e]

While she is looking those up- I'd like to redefine and maybe clarify a question:

If a person has been baptized with in a New Testament Church then why would they be required to do a Mikvah to be considered "as one in the Land"

If your are grafted in at the time of salvation and are baptized as a symbol of that, than aren't you already "as one born in the Land?"

Am I missing something here - is it like this in all messianic congregations?

I guess the whole concept of there being a separation between Mechanics and Christians is rather foggy one for me other then the fact that the Christian church is negligent in teaching the Law and following the Festivals.

Even if the Christian church is negligent (which it is) why are they not considered a part of G-d's family... grafted in when according to
Romans 11:17 they are?

I'm not trying to cause trouble- I'm trying to understand the reasoning for this.

[Mark]

The term "mikvah" is never actually found in the or Tanakh. Literally, it means "to burn" or to absolutely consume. It is a term that was added later to describe the cleansing or washing process for uncleanness given in . The term found in that describes the cleansing for uncleanness is rhakats which means "to bathe" and "kah-bas" which can mean "to trample or to bathe".

The modern definition of mikvah is a pool of water that is naturally fed in which a person can be fully "consumed".

[Prodigal Girl]

ad4e said:

While she is looking those up- I'd like to redefine and maybe clarify a question:

If a person has been baptized with in a New Testament Church then why would they be required to do a Mikvah to be considered "as one in the Land"

If your are grafted in at the time of salvation and are baptized as a symbol of that, than aren't you already "as one born in the Land?"

Am I missing something here - is it like this in all messianic congregations?

I guess the whole concept of there being a separation between Mechanics and Christians is rather foggy one for me other then the fact that the Christian church is negligent in teaching the Law and following the Festivals.

Even if the Christian church is negligent (which it is) why are they not considered a part of G-d's family... grafted in when according to
Romans 11:17 they are?

I'm not trying to cause trouble- I'm trying to understand the reasoning for this.

As I said earlier, it is not just some Messianic congregations that do this; also a significant number of churches require baptism at THEIR church in order to join, no matter if you were baptized earlier at another church. Just like churches have "oral law" though they do not call it that, which are unwritten regulations that most people who go there just understand about; it is just part of the way that particular group does it. They are not necessarily bad rules, or bad procedures; many I suspect are fine or good ideas. But what is a problem is when they are seen as required by all churches everywhere or all persons everywhere no matter the culture. One example is: no breast feeding during a church service proper. Is this an appropriate (unwritten) church rule in modern America? Maybe. Is this right in all church situations all over the world? Doubtful. Tambourines in church? Another example.
The washings that Mark referred to, which are talked about in the , and which are the basis for baptism, were something that were not just done once in your life and then that was it. Because ritual defilement was something which occurred naturally and easily.
There is rabbinic discussion, from near that time period, as to at what point gentiles coming into the faith could be fully accepted, or rather, to what degree they could be accepted, if they had undergone immersion, but not circumcision. For women in particular, immersion would have been the significant point.
It also was an issue, as to whether they had been properly immersed according to rabbinic standards of the time, depending on which rabbinic standard you were talking about obviously, as there was much variance at that time. And there were/are certain things that gentiles, uncircumcised, were not allowed to do related to the temple, based on biblical law, not just on the rabbinical interpretations.

[ad4e]

This tradition seems terribly vague to hold such weight as in one's relationship to G-d's family!
Is this seen as something separate to salvation- I would hope, at least? Because as far as I've seen, once you are saved you are in G-d's family. G-d doesn't have more then one family.

So far, I have seen no scripture backing for this at all.

[Prodigal Girl]

I would agree totally that it is separate from salvation. Then again, there are a number of churches that appear to believe that baptism is required for salvation. Actually, that has been, I believe, a doctrine of the Catholic church for some time. And frankly, by numbers, those who call themselves Christian are most likely to be Catholic, at least on a worldwide basis. A number of protestant churches seem to teach that it is expected shortly after coming to Christ, and that it is a matter of obedience to New Testament teachings about it.
I am not trying to prove anything either way to you, I am just offering my current understanding and you can draw your own conclusion. As I said, I will try to gather together some various scriptures on it and list them.
Hopefully, some others from this site will be able to offer you some additional information.

[ad4e]

That would be extremely helpful- thank you!

[Mark]

I've very much appreciated your discussion and didn't want t o interrupt; but it seems you've left off. I'd like to offer you the following thread to consider. This does not mean in any way that this specific thread is not appropriate and worthy of continuing!

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=observant&action=display&thread=524