Role of Women in the congregation

[Mark]

What is the role of women in the assembly of the congregation? The question is posed here under obedience because of Paul's statement in 1st Corinthians 14:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
(1 Corinthians 14:34)

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Apparently, there was a situation in the Corinthian congregations that needed to be addressed in regards to how women were to conduct themselves during the various holy convocations. This was already established in Judaism, but many of the Goyim (Gentiles) needed clarification on this subject. In connection with our passage in 1 Corinthians 14:34, we also read the following;

"But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness." - 1Timothy 2:11

So, we do know from this (and from what the teaches) that Biblical authority within the congregation was entrusted to the man. Not only do we see this as the preferred norm throughout the , but the Emissary Sha'ul (Paul) distills the 's teaching for us as to what the woman was to be doing and what her active role was to be within the congregation...

"But say the things which fit sound doctrine, that older men should be temperate, sensible, sober-minded, sound in faith, in love, and in patience: and that older women likewise be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that God's word may not be blasphemed." - Titus 2:1-5

For those women within the Messianic community that wish to be teachers and leaders...regardless of how intelligent, learned, or capable they are, the above is what they are actually called to. There are not be Rabbis, congregational leaders, or teachers over the general congregation. They are to focus their teaching and leadership among the women. But, unfortunately many in the Messianic and Christian communities have caused the word of God to be blasphemed (as it states in our previous passage).

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Mark]

Paul uses the phrases, "as so says the Law...". Where in is the woman forbidden from teaching but rather to sit in silence, 'under obedience'?

[Sanil]

I understand and agree with what you said, Reuel, but I'm confused by it because of other parts of Scripture. For one, doesn't Deborah instruct and have some authority over men (Judges 4-5)? Also, in Acts 18:26, it says that both Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside and taught him, not that Aquila taught him. Did these two women do something wrong? Or am I misunderstanding what they were doing?

[Bob]

Mark will be able to understand where I am coming from on this (its an illistration our paternal father used several times when teaching the passage in 1 Timothy 2 and also Titus 2).
...
Paul uses the word usurp for a reason...
The Men in the congrigation must be willing to be MEN for the women to be submissive WOMEN.
My father often used the example of when he served as a Deacon for a church in Arkansas. A woman came before the congregation (note this was after requesting permission from the Pastor to speak). She stated that she had been accused of running the church. But she also made a VERY valid point... She said that if the MEN of the church would get off their lazy duffs (pardon the colorful language) SHE would back down.
I have often seen this in many churches and even see this a little in the Messianic Congregation I now attend. The Men are:
1) outnumbered by the women by around 3 to 1
2) the Women know more then the men on average
3) many of the men are willing to allow the women to take much of the lead

Are the women to be faulted for the inadequacies of the men?
Take a look at Deborah in Judges 4-5

I think that the best case scenario is that the Men take the lead and the women follow and teach according to Paul's instruction to Titus... but if the men are unable or unwilling to take the lead God will sometimes provide a Godly woman. A Godly woman will (if there is one available defer to a Man). Such was the case with Deborah... There just wasn't a MAN around with the intestinal fortitude to lead

[Sanil]

If there are men that are able to lead, are women still allowed to teach? I'm confused by the statement that we're to keep silent. Does that mean that asking questions like this is forbidden? Does it mean that I can't talk about my ideas and and engage in a conversation with a man, I have to sit silently and just have him talk at me?

I definitely believe that women should submit to men as leaders, and that we have a supportive role rather than a leadership one. But it's a big leap from not leading the church to not being able to speak in it.

[Bob]

I think that Paul stating speak or usurp authority is the key to this verse (2 Tim 2:11)

I have been taught his wording is due to the problems the local church under Timothy faced.

[Otto]

I agree 100% with scripture / Reuel, This is not popular teaching in our western society. And in fact I have personally taken a tong lashing from woman and some men for speaking this at a meeting to pick “Deacons”.

[Prodigal Girl]

Very, very important to consider context; when and where and why; who was the letter written to, what was the problem being addressed. THEN you can think about how it would apply to us today. I know the popular way to read scripture is to ignore and remain ignorant of all this, and interpret literally, at least those scriptures which one wants to interpret in this manner for some reason. It is also popular in many church circles to ridicule biblical scholars who spend years and much effort and trying to determine the social and historical context of scriptures. It is considered to be more spiritual to "just use the Bible" (usually meaning the English Bible, preferably King James).

[Mark]

First, we should deal with the whole Deborah issue. The book of Judges is no place to go for examples for us to follow. One of the judges engaged in some form of human sacrifice, sacrificing his daughter to Adonai (Judges 11:34). The book of Judges is clear to remind us that in those days everyone did that which was right in their own eyes. It was a time of oppression from the surrounding enemies because the people were not living in obedient righteousness. This is not to discredit Deborah, nor to invalidate any woman who is in a position of leadership in any religious congregation. Yet, even in the story, it is an expression of men's that a woman would need to fulfill that role. This is point to the case that I hope to further be making this morning if not suddenly horded by a throng of pajama'd children begging for fruit loops (which is typical at some point each Saturday morning).

I posed a question here last week which no one seemed to jump on. It wasn't because I didn't have the answer. What I had was the flu, and the less time spent in an upright position was preferred.

In Genesis 3:16 we are exposed to what is referred to as "the curse of Eve."

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(Genesis 3:16)

Few understand this to be a command in the Christian community. In Judaism, it is not so much a command but a recognized state of position. It is not to be that a woman should have a authority over a man; but rather that the man should "rule over" the woman.

The phrase, "her desire shall be for him" seems enigmatic. There are lots of ways that a woman's desire can be for her husband and most of them would not be considered a curse! The phrase is repeated in Genesis 4:7 in a way that gives clarity to what Adonai is saying.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
(Genesis 4:7)

Just as the desire for sin was for Cain, so is the desire of the woman for the man. The issue is a question of dominance.

Now, we have to be fair and understand that women are by and large, to a measureable degree, a lot smarter than we are. In fact, Adonai understood this in His initial act of creation. He creates Adam in the garden and immediately states, "It is not good that man should be alone." An American queloqialism, "This kid needs help." In fact, the Hebrew word for the word "alone" is the word "bahd" which carries the visual idea of a branch that has been severed from the tree or a tree without any branches... a stump! Let it not be said that the Bible is in any way sexist, at least not to the disparity of women!

It is woman's "curse" to desire to take over, not in a malicious or malignant manner; but her basic instinct is to fix whatever is not right. That was very much the reason for her creation in the first place. Let's be honest, guys, our basic instinct is to let them. The result in the congregational setting is that if women have the freedom to do that which comes naturally to them, the rest of us wind up sitting around wondering, "When I stand up, where does my lap go?"

Paul, in 1st Corinthians 14, lays out a process that does not bypass neandrathal, rather it requires his inclusion. Wives, ask your husbands at home and make them stand up and ask the question. Otherwise, you leave him spiritually on the starting line while you are growing and maturing without him. The result of this is disastrous for your marriage, for your children, and extremely disappointing to the Kingdom of Adonai.

The phrasing in 1st Corinthians 14 does not suggest that the woman is gagged at the door. In fact, the Greek word for "silence" is sigah-oh, which means "to keep close." It is easily understood when you see that the same word is used in 1st Cornthians 14:28 of a person speaking in an unknown tongue with no interpreter, then defined as "speaking to himself and to God."

This may be understood as license for the wife to employ her stiletto elbow into her husband's ribcage prompting him to engage in the midrash. Well... maybe not. But the requirement is that if the woman wants to get things done in the fellowship, she can't just do them herself. She needs to employ her husband in the process.

There is absolutely no question as to why 1st Corinthians 13 is sandwiched between 1st Corinthians 11 (where the husband is the head of the wife) and 1st Corinthians 14. In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul states that when he became a man (not an adult person but an adult male), he put away childish things (1st Corinthians 13:11). This is man's problem, his issues. In 1st Corinthians 14, Paul is simply admonishing the women to not fix it for him. He needs to struggle through this. He must not default his responsibility into your capable hands.

By the way, there are women elders in the Church. In Greek, it is important to understand not only the words that are used but why some words are chosen above others. Presbutis is the Greek word for sweet little old man. Presbutes is the word for sweet little old lady. Presbuteros is thew word for elder, or congregational leader in the biblical context. (one little kid just popped through the door and he has bouncing around stark naked so I'm really going to have to be brief.) In 1st Timothy 5:2, Paul identifies a group of ladies he refers to as Presbuteros gune (women who are elders). Their specific role in the congregation is defined in Titus 2:3-5. (A role which we guys need to keep clear out of- in fact, I don't counsel women at all. That is a role for the elder women.)

Ladies, you need to understand what is the curse of Eve and how it affects you. Understand that it is the natural response; yet, it is equally the result of sin entering the world (though your husband's ancestor). Take a sincere inventory as to whether you want to teach because Adonai is calling you to a ministry to the women or because you don't thing someone's husband is doing a good enough job.

Oh, and Happy Mother's Day!

[Sanil]

Thanks Mark, that helps a lot. I still have questions, though. I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or just thinking about it too much and reading too much into it.

First, what about a woman who isn't married, or who is married to a non-believer? She can't ask her husband at home. What is she supposed to do? Since this applies to me, what am I supposed to do? Refrain from asking my questions or voicing my thoughts because I'm not a man and don't have one to speak for me? Only speak to other women? Or is there a place for women to speak with men?

I don't want a leadership or teaching position over men...I'd be horrible at that anyway, even if women were meant to do it. I get flustered when I have to speak to a group and everything I say comes out as whispered nonsense. But in a smaller group of close friends, I have no problem taking the lead if it's a group of girls, or letting a guy take the lead in a mixed group, and speaking when it makes sense for me to speak. In that type of situation, I think that we are all pretty equal, none of us have authority over each other, and we are all learning from each other. So my question...is that stepping out of my place? Am I supposed to avoid these groups or avoid speaking in them and just let the men teach?

[Prodigal Girl]

There is something not quite right, that in most churches women way outnumber men. The church is feminized. Biblically, at least in Old Testament stories, men very much took the lead roles, if by that we mean the "star" roles. However, we must always keep in mind that in life, the persons who take front stage are NEVER to erroneously think that they are somehow better than those in supporting roles. That is where gross error and misuse of power takes over. I believe that the Messiah came to liberate many in bondage. That includes women as well as slaves. However there is always a proper time, place and way to conduct yourself so as to gain the results you want in the most effective manner. I believe that is what Paul was discussing in those passages. Women are to be gentle as doves, but wise as serpents. Don't be gullible, use your brain, use your wits, prepare yourself, and STAND UP to men who are trying to misuse and abuse you. Because there will always be those who try to, including and maybe especially the church/messianic synagogue.

[Mark]

Hi Sanil,

The "proper procedure" would be to go to the wife an elder (who is presumably a 'presbuteros gune'. She would answer your question and or extend your question to her husband. We struggle with this often because we sometimes get a little catholic in our thinking: that distance from the leadership is equal to being distanced from Adonai. If you're simply seeking information, there is no problem; but many folk (both men and women) use questions or theological anicdotes to promote themselves even small circles.

Many Messianic groups are very, very small congregations. My wife jokes about our group because sometimes we are "Two-house"; except in our case that means that there is our family and one other family. These relationships tend to be much more relaxed and the "no-speaking" rule is much less "enforced". Should our congregation becoming larger, it would lose the impromptu format of discussion that we now enjoy during our worship service so the issue would disappear.

If your husband is not hostile to the subject, it may do some good to ask him your questions anyway. It is very dangerous to leave him spiritually behind. Even if He doesn't agree with where you are going, it is an important idea to keep him apprised as to where you are. It is a tragic decision to have to choose between God and God's command to honor your husband.

If he is interested at all, I have some materials that I can send you that he may be willing to read. They are short and designed for the person who is not religious of who has never considered the Messianic perspective.

Send me a PM if you think he would be interested.

[Sanil]

Thanks again. I think that pretty much answers all my questions about it.

Oh. I was confused about the end of your post, now I see why. I didn't phrase that very well in my previous post, I meant not having a husband applies to me, so I couldn't ask (and so don't have anyone to give those materials too). Thank you very much for offering, though.

[Nashdude]

So now that everybody's satisfied with the teaching at hand, please allow the newbie to muddy the waters a bit

Deborah's by far NOT the only woman that we could use for this discussion. The Bible also refers to Lydia and Eunice, and also the husband-wife team of Priscilla and Aquila. And while I fully understand and agree with the issue of women holding authority over men, I'm not entirely convinced that this bars them from teaching or holding certain positions in the body of Christ, of which men may be a part of.

The main point for me is authority. A woman must, according to the Law, be in submission to her man---be it her husband, or her father if she is too young yet to marry. However, this immediately comes to mind...

Matthew 19:6 -- Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Jewish culture, I think a married woman had perfect authority to conduct business, if it is done under her husband's authority. Consider the Proverb about the Virtuous Woman...

Proverbs 31:11 -- The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

Proverbs 31:16 -- She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

In practically every instance, the Proverb speaks of her conducting business for the good of the household. It is done in her husband's name and with her husband's trust. No doubt, if she abused that trust, she would have to answer to her husband for it.

Not unlike the Christian's responsibility concerning our role with our spiritual Husband, Jesus the Messiah.

This sets me to thinking---as long as the woman remains under her husband's authority to conduct business, and is answerable to him as such, can she not operate similarly in the church? It would certainly answer why Apollos learned so much at the feet of both Aquila and Priscilla concerning the Lord (Acts 18:26). It would also answer why Paul looked at them EQUALLY as his helpers in Christ Jesus, even going so far as to mention Priscilla first (Romans 16:3).

As I said, I don't know how Jewish culture sees marriage in this respect, but it certainly fits scripturally as far as I can see.