Prayer shawl

[Yitzchak]

firestorm said:

;D Me again. What I was trying to say was, as a newbie to the whole Messianic thing, I don't want to just be a bandwagon jumper. I want my every act of worship to come from the heart with full understanding.

I don't have the hang of the "quote" gadget but there have been a few things said here that I've found curious and disturbing. One of them is assertion that women were brought into the covenant through male leadership. If this applies to the Old Covenant, what about the New? If my husband fouls up and I follow him does this then absolve me from any responsibility? This line of reasoning, to my mind, suggests that my status is similar to that of a minor child not fully responsible as a free moral agent.
By the way, I don't believe this, but I do see some unsettling inconsistencies here. This is probably a topic that needs a separate thread!

Firestorm,

If I have not already welcomed you to the forums, let me do that now. Welcome and may HaShem richly bless you here.

As it is a post which I made to which you refer, please lt me comment.

I was referring to the OT in regards to circumcision which was the question posed. Women were not brought into the covenant through circumcision, but through the male leadership at that time.

We are all equal as it relates to our salvation experience, as there are no longer male/female, or Hebrew/Greek, and yet we still maintain our roles outside of salvation.

Assuming that your husband is a believer, he is called to be the Priest and Prophet of his household, and thus does have a responsibility for managing his household. This does not mean that you are to follow him into sin, as each of us are responsible in our personal relationship with G-d.

Please re-read my comments, and realize that they were not meant in the context that you suggest.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Just to throw my two cents in. The mitzvah is fulfilled by wearing a tallit wether or not it has blue fringes, that is a personal decision. Women can be physically circumcised, but I wouldn't recommend it. (I am currently taking anatomy and I guess for the purpose of this conversation, the $500 has finally paid off), but HaShem still does not want them to. The other idea is that woman are only responsible for the mitzvah that say "don't do this"; not because women are worse, but because women typically run the home, they need to be able to keep children and even husbands inside the framework of morality by saying do not do this; when the family learns from the mother what not to do, they look to her to see what is permissable, even the husband. However, the most holiest of women, have even gone so far as to put on tefillin, this is because of years of sanctifying themselves, not because of a decision to try out something new. A woman can become close with a HaShem in a way no man can ever do. When a woman does so for the sake of HaShem only, for no other reason, and raises her soul to such a level, then she can start wearing tefillin and tallit. Responses?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

don't have the hang of the "quote" gadget but there have been a few things said here that I've found curious and disturbing. One of them is assertion that women were brought into the covenant through male leadership.

Each individual is responsible to come into covenant with Adonai. No one person can do it for you. I think perhaps what was communicated was meant to say that G’d made is covenants with men and it was the responsibility of these men and men after them to maintain the covenants and keep their family in the way of righteousness as they are indeed the priests of their own households. Today we live in a society were many woman have rejected the authority of their fathers, husbands, and other male authority in their lives...so this idea that a male authority figure introducing them to a covenant and that this male is responsible for this (in regards to his family) can be a foreign idea. I know that in Mormonism there is a teaching that says it is up to the husband in regards to allowing his wife to enter “heaven”. I don’t agree with this teaching and I don’t think anybody here is pushing that either. I hope this makes more sense.

Shalom,

Reuel

[nasah]

I would like to address some things here, as this is a topic of interest to me.

However, He did not. He wore the fringes, as did His Talmidim, and there is no place where we read that any woman, and there were many that were part of His ministry, ever questioned Him on this particular mitzvot, or any other for that matter.

Oftentimes when the scriptures are silent on specifics, it's because the matter was taken for granted as common knowledge.
Perhaps one could conclude this was never addressed by women in the times of Yeshua, because simply there was no issue of contention.

Does that mean women wore tzitzit, and that was that, or does this mean women didn't wear tzitzit and simply didn't care that it was just a men's thing?

To discern that one needs to look further into scripture. When the original command was given, i do not see that it was directed only at the m,ale audience only, but at all who stood there receiving the commands.

Num 15:38 "Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.
Num 15:39 And it shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, to do them, not to follow after your own heart and your own eyes, which you are inclined to sleeper after.

Why would this command only apply to men? Are women exempt from lusting with their eyes?

Now as for the Tallit, or prayershawl, this is a rather modern invention and was derived from the tallit katan worn back in Yeshua's day, which was a sort of blanket like overcoat/apron type of thing see the wiki on that here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallit
check out especially the section about the historical origin

And another scripture reads:

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

I do not think God wants men and women to act differently regarding His commandments. I have no difficulty accepting that women and men are given different roles in other things.

Kippah's on the other hand are definitely a male item, because men do not usually have long heir as their covering.

1Co 11:14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him,
1Co 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.


Just my humble view of things at the present time.

Shalom,
nasah

[skeeterbugs]

Someone please correct me If I am wrong but the does not forbid women from wearing tallits or kippahs. If it is the then where would I find it

[Mark]

The kippa is nowhere recorded in the Bible at all. The tallit has undergone such metamorphosis over time that it is no longer the same article. The question comes to the consideration as to whether or not the kippah and tallit are male garments:

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
(Deuteronomy 22:5)


I should interject that the woman's head-covering described by Paul in 1st Corinthians 11 is not simply her hair
please see thread:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=paul&action=display&thread=182&page=1

My personal opinion is not to interfere ina woman's personal decisions for this sort of worship, just like I hope that it is not interpreted that I demand women to wear a head-covering. At the same time, I do believe that, in light of Deuteronomy 22:5, the woman's garment should be clearly distinguisable from a man's (and most women's kippot and tallit are quite distinguishable as being feminine).

[nasah]

Mark,

i appreciate your approach to this topic. Let me ask you more individually.

There are congregations where women wear tzitzit on belt loops just like men or attached to their shirts which are obviously feminine.

Now if a woman were to wear a tallit, i believe you are saying that tallit should be more feminine, and the same wpuld go for a prayer shawl?

See our congregation has no women wear tzitzit, and i would feel so out of place wearing them, though i yearn for it. I see some women wear a feminine shawl when prayer time comes around, but nothing else to do with Tzitzit or prayer shawls.

So let me ask you why do you believe the scriptures pertaining to women and men not wearing outfits pertaining to the opposite gender is referring to articles of holiness?

I will read the link to the hair issue LOL

Shalom,
nasah

[Eliora]

Shalom Nasah,
The Rabbinic origin of only men wearing tzitziyot is because they claim that it's a time-sensitive commandment. In other words, they say women aren't obligated to do things if they must be done at a particular time, since they may be busy at that time taking care of children, etc. They say there's no point wearing tzitziyot at night, since you can't see them then, thus wearing tzitziyot is a time-sensitive commandment.

Nevertheless, there are incidences in the Talmud that testify that women used to at least sometimes wear them. I'm not sure exactly where it is (I'll find it if you want me to), but the Talmud mentions a rabbi who tied tzitziyot to his wife's apron.

So that's what we know from history. As for the Bible, God told Moses to speak to the "children of Israel" about that commandment (Numbers 15:38). "B'nei Yisrael" (the children of Israel) includes both men and women. If God wanted to specify men only, there is a different word that could be used there ("zecher" would refer to men only).

That's why I don't think that tzitziyot could ever be a clothing item for men only. Maybe the traditional tallits are, but if the tzitziyot are put on a clearly feminine article of clothing, there is no problem with cross-dressing, and we're fulfilling what God told us to do.

So anyway, about feeling out of place, you'd really be surprised! I was afraid that when I started wearing mine, I would be harassed to no end because I'm female, and because mine contain blue threads. Especially considering that I was in college at the time, taking a Hebrew class, and an Israeli dance class, so I was around a lot of rabbinical Jews. But I've been wearing them for 4 years or so now, and I've never received a single negative comment. Non-Jews will occasionally (like once a month or so) ask me what they are, and I've had maybe two incidences of Jews being like, "Are those tzitzits? Are you Jewish?" But I've never had any negative comments, and usually people think it's pretty cool. You should give it a try.