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Post by Stacey on Aug 26, 2005 5:42:52 GMT -8
I'm very new to all this (as I'm sure is obvious by now, lol) but I am just amazed at what I have learned since yesterday alone! And I suppose that's why I'm seeking the truth so vehemently right now.
I have been raised ALL my life as a Christian. No questions asked, at all, until my adulthood, when I started questioning the fact that there are so many denominations, arguments about seemingly frivilous things, and the holidays celebrated in such pagan style. One denomination believes they're going to heaven cause they take communion every service, another believes they're right because they take it every 5th Sunday, and yet another says that no one is good enough to take communion. Then there are arguments about baptism, the age of accountability, foot-washing, speaking in tongues, the gifts of the spirit and the list goes on and on and on. I've attended every single denomination (except catholic) and still feel like something is missing. For several years now, when someone asks me about my religion, I tell them that I am a self-proclaimed non-denominationalist seeking the truth from God's word. And ALL of it, not just the new testament. I can't see how anyone can separate the two, though I've been taught my whole life as well, that to keep the Old Testament law puts us under the whole law and makes grace of no effect.
A lot of what I'm seeing on this board is very strange to me, and makes me a little uncomfortable right now. Please understand though, I believe it's because a lifetime of being taught one way is still very much a part of me. HOWEVER, that same lifetime of teaching seems to have a lot of holes in it, and a lot of things have caused a great deal of confusion in my life.
I started researching Jewish traditions and holidays for one reason only, and that was for my children. There are really no Christian traditions or holidays that can be passed down to our children in ways that are as meaningful as the ones I've seen in the Jewish or Messianic faiths. For instance, let's take Easter and Christmas...one celebrated with rabbits and eggs, the other with a tree. Though the underlying message is Christian, the celebration itself is NOT, clearly, and I wonder how we have let ourselves get so far from God that way. I want a faith that not only adheres to God's truth the way the Bible lays it out, but I want a faith that my children can KNOW about and pass along to their children and their children's children. And so far, the only division I've seen in this faith is that Christians are missing the Jewishness of the New Covenant, and the Jewish are missing Yeshua. I'm still not completely understanding that, but bear with me. If I'm wrong, I'm ready to find out the truth.
I'm not sure my husband is grasping this change in me right now, and I don't know whether or not he will, but he's not forbidding it either. One thing I do NOT want to do is disrespect him as my husband. So that's another question - how can I explore this change without disrespecting him, and still allowing him to be my "cover"?
Ok, I apologize for the length of this, but I simply had to post. Thanks for listening, and God bless you.
Shalom, Stacey~
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 27, 2005 14:43:04 GMT -8
I have seen this many times. You are right in saying you should respect your husband. Learn and do as much of that he allows and win him by a gentle and quiet spirit. Be patient with him...it may take many years. There is much to learn, feel free to ask as many questions that you may have. We will answer them to the best of our ability. Shalom sister, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 28, 2005 11:39:09 GMT -8
I'm not sure I agree with that completely. Let me explain: On the one hand, you have Scripture which states that a woman is to be submissive to her husband. On the other hand, you have Rav Sh'aul saying that two people should not be yoked together unequally. In addition to that, we see many times throughout Scripture that of all the mitzvot, idolatry is the worst. And in the Midrashim and Talmud is even considered a "deal breaker" between man and HaShem. This is exactly the reason that the Northern Kingdom of Israel (the 10 Tribes) was given a bill of divorce from HaShem and can now only re-enter the covenant through their brother Judah. It is also this same word "zanot" which is used by Yeshua in Matthew when he is talking about the conditions for divorce. So, my opinion on this issue would be that a woman should stay with her husband who is not observant, so long as he is not causing her to commit idolatry (there are other specific reasons as well, but are not pertinent to this topic, so I won't get into them here), and the same rule would apply for a man as well. I hope you guys understand that I am by no means advocating divorce as a rule of thumb, but I do believe there are certain situations in which it is acceptable. At any rate Stacey, I am happy for you in your new journey. May HaShem bless you and your family as you seek the Truth of his .
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 29, 2005 0:08:48 GMT -8
Agreed, but I don't believe that idolatry is neccessarily the case with Stacey. I was thinking of what Kefa (Peter) said... "In like manner, wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; so that, even if any don't obey the Word, they may be won by the behavior of their wives without a word;seeing your pure behavior in fear." - 1Kefa (Pet.) 3:1-2 But, if they come off abrasive and argumentative with their husbands...I have seen it before...women whom first come to the truth of and then beat their husbands over the head with it until they divorce and the family goes to hell in a hand-basket. But, if the wife would just head the words of Kefa (Peter) above, she in many cases (with patience and longsuffering) will win over their husbands to the truth along with any children they may have. This truly produces much more fruit. It is a very tricky situation if the husband does not understand the truth of in their lives. But, without a believing husband, it will be almost impossible to live a lifestyle. Short of divorce, such a wife can only do as much as she is allowed. This is a very difficult subject as many, many woman have come to find. My prayers are with them. Shalom chaverim, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 29, 2005 4:37:55 GMT -8
And I'm not saying it is, and I sure hope I didn't come across as insinuating that it was an issue because I didn't mean to. And you mean Kefa right, not Sh'aul?
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Post by messimom on Aug 29, 2005 10:47:16 GMT -8
I think as a woman, and observant submissive wife, I can contribute something here. I have been very blessed to have been brought to understand and commit to observance at the same as my husband. We had no clashes there as so many other wives and husbands have. However the delimma I think here is how to follow one commandment without breaking another in this type of situation. For example, how does one follow the 4th mitzvot of keeping shabbat when their spouse threatens to beat them if they don't clean or otherwise...and vice versa...how do you keep the shabbat if you are obeying the mitzvot to submit to your husband(as a wife)? Sometimes people forget that is not a simple matter of a spouse sitting back and "disagreeing" with their mates new found love of . I think there may be a need for a big mix of prayer, observance, and submission to a spouse. All I can say here, Stacey, is that I will pray for you that as you grow in your husband's heart will be changed and that YHVH will provide peace in your home and bless you for your intent to follow . Messimom
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 29, 2005 12:09:50 GMT -8
No, I didn't really think you were. But, this is a good subject to search out and you have some good points. Good catch. I think I had Sh'aul on the brain. Thank you Messimom for contributing your thoughts to this discussion. I hope that other women will also share their thoughts as well. Shalom, Reuel
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Post by Vaneide on Aug 29, 2005 23:49:12 GMT -8
I think as a woman, and observant submissive wife, I can contribute something here. I have been very blessed to have been brought to understand and commit to observance at the same as my husband. We had no clashes there as so many other wives and husbands have. However the delimma I think here is how to follow one commandment without breaking another in this type of situation. For example, how does one follow the 4th mitzvot of keeping shabbat when their spouse threatens to beat them if they don't clean or otherwise...and vice versa...how do you keep the shabbat if you are obeying the mitzvot to submit to your husband(as a wife)? Sometimes people forget that is not a simple matter of a spouse sitting back and "disagreeing" with their mates new found love of . I think there may be a need for a big mix of prayer, observance, and submission to a spouse. All I can say here, Stacey, is that I will pray for you that as you grow in your husband's heart will be changed and that YHVH will provide peace in your home and bless you for your intent to follow . Messimom I agree with you. I have the same problem of Stacey, and somentimes I don't know what to do, I just pray, but is not simple. Sometime I think the is not for everyone, or is not for me, because I can see that my husband will stay in his denomenation untill his died, and they are very tradicional and very christian. And I have to obey him. So, I think is not simple, is very, very hard and painful. Vaneide.
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Post by Mark on Aug 30, 2005 4:09:59 GMT -8
I have to disagree with Netzar Y'hudi about "unequally yoked" as a grounds for divorce. Yeshua told us that fornication is the only biblical grounds. Paul's counsel was to stay in a marriage, even with an unbeliever; but if the spouse leaves, let them leave. This has been the case in some families, I know. In most cases, I've seen the love of Adonai woo the spouse through seeing that the is not the burden that he (or she) had been taught that it is. This isn't done by teaching or preaching; but living to the best of your ability the commands in Scripture. Over and over you find that even repressive governments have turned a blind eye to accomodate observance- you'll probably be surprised to find that your spouse will (by Adonai's hand) gives you liberty to be observant of , so long as you don't push him or become condescending toward him. We are involved in at least two families right now that bear some similarity to your situation. One wife, is now (after about a month involved with us) is allowed to attend Shabbat service with us for an hour. I liken it to a squirel that you're feeding bread in the park. They watch you from a distance for a while. As long as you don't chase them, pretty soon they'll be eating out of your hand. You've got something that your husband needs. As soon as he sees it, he'll become interested. But don't chase him. Keep still and pray.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 30, 2005 5:02:00 GMT -8
Actually, the word used by Yeshua in Hebrew Matthew was "zanot." And a similiar word was used in Aramaic (though I can't remember it off the top of my head). Zanot can have a dual meaning. It can either mean adultery or idolatry, depending on the context. And since idolatry is actually adultery to HaShem, the word ends up having the same meaning in both instances. So the English translation of "fornication" really doesn't do justice to the context.
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Post by Mark on Aug 31, 2005 3:36:57 GMT -8
I have a little trouble with the point that you seem to be trying to make. In context, Yeshua was stating that it is a very narrow thread that justifies one leaving thier spouse. (Effectively, in the case of sexual immorality, that spouse has already left them.) In Greek the word used is pornia. The word translated idolatry is almost pronounced idolatry- meaning (generally) image worship. In Greek, the two words could be joined if the implication was broader- the sense of idolatry is nowhere found in the text. Knowing husbands and wives just a little, it wouldn't take much to convince any of our wives that we are guilty of idolatry in some way or other- in that case they could all justifiably leave us.
While the Greek translator/writer may not have used the exact words that Yeshus spoke (we both assume that He spoke in either Hebrew or Aramaic) we have no reason to believe the translator /writer would choose wording that is contrary or deceptive in this matter. This interpretation seems consistent with the Pauline writing earlier cited; whereas defining "fornication" as idolatry does not.
This is a hard subject, mainly because divorce is so common. We have become accustomed and accepting of the damage that it does to people. If for no other reason, divorce ought not be an option simply because we are to be people who keep our word (Psalm 15:4). Whatever happened to "for better or for worse... till death do us part?"
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Post by Mark on Aug 31, 2005 3:53:32 GMT -8
Stacey, If your husband has any desire to understand where you are coming from, I'd like to recommend to him the book "Restoration" from First Fruits of Zion www.ffoz.org . If he considers himself somewhat knowledgeable in Paul's epistles (particularly justifying abandonment of the Law by the book of Galatians, I recommend Tim Hegg's book "The Letter Writer" from www.torahresource.com . Another good tool to have lying around the house is "Messiah" magazine, also from ffoz. Mostly, love and honor the guy, as it is apparant that you do. He wants the best for your family. He wants the best for your marriage. He may see some things in your Messianic perspective that are not righteous. He may just be confused and be uncomfortable with feeling that way. I'm suggesting books to you so that you can allow him to be taught without you being in the position of his teacher (which is often very uncomfortable and even caustic to many husbands). www.yashanet.org is a good place for locating a fellowship in your local area. Blessings to you and your family, Mark PS: High Holy Days are often very surprising and confusing to spouses who aren't on the same page. Determine how you plan to celebrate them early. Discuss your plans (gently) with your spouse and give him a long runway.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 31, 2005 5:39:11 GMT -8
Right. Here we have a case where Yeshua sided with Beit Shammai on the issue of divorce, by saying that divorce can only be an option in the most extreme of cases. As I have no knowledge of Greek whatsover, I can't argue with you over what word was used there in Greek. I have knowledge of Hebrew, Russian, and English, and can read a little Aramaic, but that's the extent of my language capabilities.
As to whether or not the word was fornication, if it was, then there is only defintion that I would agree with:
This is not our modern definition of fornication. If it were to simply mean intercourse between a man and an unmarried woman, then Avraham Avinu would be guilty, as well as Ya'akov, David, Shlomo, etc...
And if this is the correct definition of fornication (as I believe it is), then it fits perfectly with the word that Yeshua used, as it can mean either adultery or idolatry, or (as I believe) both.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 31, 2005 5:40:41 GMT -8
Stacey, If your husband has any desire to understand where you are coming from, I'd like to recommend to him the book "Restoration" from First Fruits of Zion www.ffoz.org . If he considers himself somewhat knowledgeable in Paul's epistles (particularly justifying abandonment of the Law by the book of Galatians, I recommend Tim Hegg's book "The Letter Writer" from www.torahresource.com . Another good tool to have lying around the house is "Messiah" magazine, also from ffoz. Mostly, love and honor the guy, as it is apparant that you do. He wants the best for your family. He wants the best for your marriage. He may see some things in your Messianic perspective that are not righteous. He may just be confused and be uncomfortable with feeling that way. I'm suggesting books to you so that you can allow him to be taught without you being in the position of his teacher (which is often very uncomfortable and even caustic to many husbands). www.yashanet.org is a good place for locating a fellowship in your local area. Blessings to you and your family, Mark PS: High Holy Days are often very surprising and confusing to spouses who aren't on the same page. Determine how you plan to celebrate them early. Discuss your plans (gently) with your spouse and give him a long runway. Excellent Suggestions. When I first became observant, I got so excited that I almost pushed my wife into it. As a result, she took even longer to come around. Now, I am happy to say, we are on the same page.
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Post by messimom on Aug 31, 2005 11:04:31 GMT -8
I also agree with Mark's excellent advice. I think a bigger picture here is that this is an excellent example of what happens when is abandoned. What a wonderful teaching tool we have in seeing the pain and strife that comes from unequally yoked people(unfortunately for them). Had we all had from youth as Adonai had meant, this would not be nearly the issue it is now. Now we have families broken by everything from adultery to drug abuse....it is a shape of affairs this world is in. And now we have even righteousness coming between people in marriage. Yet more proof that all scripture is valid(did we need it? ): "Luke 12: 51: Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; 52: for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; 53: they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." I can't help but think that observance is part of what Yeshua is speaking of here. To see the adjustments that families have to make when one member of a family becomes observant helps me to see just how badly we have needed all along. I can use this wisdom for my children. I have three girls and it is my responsibility to help teach them . One day when they are ready to marry, I pray that I have done a well enough job that they will see the importance of being equally yoked. As I have said before, I consider myself doubly blessed to have come into observance under the covering and blessings of my husband who has led our family on this journey. I thank YHVH for this, and pray for those who don't have it that it will come soon. Why would YHVH not bless and reward those striving for obedience? Messimom
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