Hell

[alon]

Mar 2, 2006 18:49:40 GMT -8 Blake said:

(The new quote format is driving me nuts!)

Mar 2, 2006 12:49:40 GMT -8 Blake said:

... The largest point used to prove Hell or a similar concept is from Moschiach's parable of Rich Man and Lazurus. Parables are fictional stories designed to express an idea or teaching, we don't literally interpret the parable of the Wise and Foolish virgins or that of the Lost Sheep. If we did we would miss the underlying point.
Plus, if this story is taken literally how could Avraham give a drop of water to someone acroos an enormous gulf?
There is just no biblical basis that I can find to support a literal place souls go at death.
References to Sheol as a place were just allegory to wither prove a point or represent the total destruction of the grave. ...

Luk 16:20 (KJV) And there was And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Parables start out with a qualifying phrase, like "It is as" or "Something is like." This story starts out with a definite statement "And there was." So it is not a parable, but true. However I fail to see why people want to argue whether it is or not. Even if it was a parable, the "idea or teaching" here is of two destinations after death: one is pleasant, the other is most decidedly not. Either way, Yeshua wasn't teaching about this to entertain the troops. He was warning us; teaching us about the afterlife.

Dan C

[maranguape]

Feb 6, 2006 3:25:11 GMT -8 Mark said:

Is Hell a place of perpetual torment or is it a condition of final destruction?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell is a condition of final destruction called Sheol aka the grave. That's where
when one passes away, he or she is taken to the eternal home of the dead.
 (Psalm 49:12,20) JPS translation. King David also shared his kingly opinion
that once dead, no one will ever return from there. (II Samuel 12:23)

[alon]

Sept 18, 2018 13:30:10 GMT -8 maranguape said:

Hell is a condition of final destruction called Sheol aka the grave. That's where
when one passes away, he or she is taken to the eternal home of the dead.
 (Psalm 49:12,20) JPS translation. King David also shared his kingly opinion
that once dead, no one will ever return from there. (II Samuel 12:23)

Yes, we know your views. But instead of me refuting them again, allow me the same "cookie-cutter" system in my response:

Sept 10, 2018 14:57:34 GMT -7 alon said:

Sept 10, 2018 9:58:33 GMT -7 maranguape said:
Is Physical Resurrected Possible?

No, totally impossible for two reasons: First, because it contradicts the Word of God in the Tanakh (TNK) and second for complete lack of evidence throughout the History of the world.
In the Tanakh we read in II Samuel 12:23 that King David declared that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Then, if you read Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS translation) the world
to come aka Sheol which is the grave is the eternal home of the dead. Eternal is forever and forever is an endless time. Now, for the second reason, there has never been an eyewitness
that someone has ever experienced resurrection.

We've covered this a few times, and still you almost cut and paste the same arguments. And the answer is the same:

King David, mourning the loss of his son does declare he will never return in this lifetime. He says nothing about the resurrection. And according to the study notes in my JPS TNK, Psalm 49 is saying that the wealthy cannot take their wealth with them into the next world. Taken alone, I can see how these verses would seem to support your view. But taken in context, they are merely part of an essay on the futility of amassing wealth here on earth; and encouragement to those of us who suffer at the hands of the rich and powerful.

And seriously; you still say there has never been an eyewitness to a resurrection? Forget the eyewitness accounts in the NT, but as I've already told you both Elijah (1 Kings 17) and Elisha (2 Kings 4) resurrected people who were dead. Would you doubt the accuracy of those Biblical accounts from the TNK? Or how about the man in 2 Kings 13 who came into contact with Elisha's bones?

Your views on the resurrection are weak, and not as you claim supported by scripture. Furthermore, carry these views to their logical conclusion and you get the doctrines of the Sadducees, who also did not believe in the resurrection. They colluded with Rome to suppress their own people, committing mass murder on many occasions. They corrupted the priesthood, the Sanhedrin, and the office of High Priest, all to ammass wealth and power. You may not be able to take it with you as the Psalmist said, but you might as well enjoy it all you can now, right? No afterlife, no judgement ... no problem!

Dan C

[azrael]

I believe after G-d Redeems all spirits from this ‘Universe’ or ‘Master Dispensation’ as I like to call it (from Big Bang to Final Entropy), the remaining spirits will be bound to black holes, which will hold them for almost an eternity until they are projected into a new Spacetime (Master Dispensation) so that they can have another chance to exist and succeed in their Spiritual Progression into a state appropriate to transcend this two force domain. I suspect this is just one of many fates of the spirit that might be hellish.

Pure speculation of course.

[alon]

Jan 2, 2019 3:18:42 GMT -8 azrael said:

I believe after G-d Redeems all spirits from this ‘Universe’ or ‘Master Dispensation’ as I like to call it (from Big Bang to Final Entropy), the remaining spirits will be bound to black holes, which will hold them for almost an eternity until they are projected into a new Spacetime (Master Dispensation) so that they can have another chance to exist and succeed in their Spiritual Progression into a state appropriate to transcend this two force domain. I suspect this is just one of many fates of the spirit that might be hellish.

Pure speculation of course.

We do not speculate here. We discuss theological issues based on the 66 book Bible interpreted as much as possible from a 1st cen CE Jewish point of view. If you are truly interested in Messianic Judaism, I suggest you read your Bible, starting with the first 5 books, which are . These books are the basis for all holy writ. You might also spend some time in the archives here reading about how we look at different theological issues. Then ask questions. However teaching based on flights of fancy is not permitted here, so please refrain from doing so.

[azrael]

Jan 2, 2019 3:56:36 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 2, 2019 3:18:42 GMT -8 azrael said:

I believe after G-d Redeems all spirits from this ‘Universe’ or ‘Master Dispensation’ as I like to call it (from Big Bang to Final Entropy), the remaining spirits will be bound to black holes, which will hold them for almost an eternity until they are projected into a new Spacetime (Master Dispensation) so that they can have another chance to exist and succeed in their Spiritual Progression into a state appropriate to transcend this two force domain. I suspect this is just one of many fates of the spirit that might be hellish.

Pure speculation of course.

We do not speculate here. We discuss theological issues based on the 66 book Bible interpreted as much as possible from a 1st cen CE Jewish point of view. If you are truly interested in Messianic Judaism, I suggest you read your Bible, starting with the first 5 books, which are . These books are the basis for all holy writ. You might also spend some time in the archives here reading about how we look at different theological issues. Then ask questions. However teaching based on flights of fancy is not permitted here, so please refrain from doing so.

It appears from this early perspective you enforce your speculative belief, and attempt to moderate any others.

Do you know of an Angel in the preexistence which also wanted to enforce his desire absolutely?

[alon]

Jan 2, 2019 4:39:02 GMT -8 azrael said:

Jan 2, 2019 3:56:36 GMT -8 alon said:

We do not speculate here. We discuss theological issues based on the 66 book Bible interpreted as much as possible from a 1st cen CE Jewish point of view. If you are truly interested in Messianic Judaism, I suggest you read your Bible, starting with the first 5 books, which are . These books are the basis for all holy writ. You might also spend some time in the archives here reading about how we look at different theological issues. Then ask questions. However teaching based on flights of fancy is not permitted here, so please refrain from doing so.

It appears from this early perspective you enforce your speculative belief, and attempt to moderate any others.

Do you know of an Angel in the preexistence which also wanted to enforce his desire absolutely?

Member is banned, however I will say neither I nor this forum are the ones speculating on black holes and a second chance after death. However he is not the first one to compare me to Lucifer!    Dan     C

[rakovsky]

Sept 18, 2018 14:31:56 GMT -8 alon said:

• Sept 10, 2018 9:58:33 GMT -7 maranguape said:
  Is Physical Resurrected Possible?
  
  No, totally impossible for two reasons: First, because it contradicts the Word of God in the Tanakh (TNK) and second for complete lack of evidence throughout the History of the world.
  In the Tanakh we read in II Samuel 12:23 that King David declared that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Then, if you read Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS translation) the world
  to come aka Sheol which is the grave is the eternal home of the dead. Eternal is forever and forever is an endless time. Now, for the second reason, there has never been an eyewitness
  that someone has ever experienced resurrection.

Sept 10, 2018 14:57:34 GMT -7 alon said:
We've covered this a few times, and still you almost cut and paste the same arguments. And the answer is the same:

King David, mourning the loss of his son does declare he will never return in this lifetime. He says nothing about the resurrection. And according to the study notes in my JPS TNK, Psalm 49 is saying that the wealthy cannot take their wealth with them into the next world. Taken alone, I can see how these verses would seem to support your view. But taken in context, they are merely part of an essay on the futility of amassing wealth here on earth; and encouragement to those of us who suffer at the hands of the rich and powerful.

And seriously; you still say there has never been an eyewitness to a resurrection? Forget the eyewitness accounts in the NT, but as I've already told you both Elijah (1 Kings 17) and Elisha (2 Kings 4) resurrected people who were dead. Would you doubt the accuracy of those Biblical accounts from the TNK? Or how about the man in 2 Kings 13 who came into contact with Elisha's bones?

Your views on the resurrection are weak, and not as you claim supported by scripture. Furthermore, carry these views to their logical conclusion and you get the doctrines of the Sadducees, who also did not believe in the resurrection. They colluded with Rome to suppress their own people, committing mass murder on many occasions. They corrupted the priesthood, the Sanhedrin, and the office of High Priest, all to ammass wealth and power. You may not be able to take it with you as the Psalmist said, but you might as well enjoy it all you can now, right? No afterlife, no judgement ... no problem!

Dan C

Isaiah 26 predicts the resurrection, and there have been numerous cases where people died in hospitals (ie. appeared to be dead, having no pulse, nor heart or brain acticity) but returned to life quite soon afterwards (within several seconds or minutes).

In 2 Samuel 12:23, David says about his son: "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." The context is David's present time, which he refers to as "now". It doesn't necessarily mean that apocalyptic events couldn't happen like the resurrection of the dead to bring the son back later.