Elohim

[Nachshon]

No. 'Adam did not become a living creature, but a living soul. I think that is a very important distinction. I remain unconvinced that there are three manifestations. I've done a touch of study, and as far as I can tell, there could be anywhere from two to nine manifestations of Father, but I tend to doubt that there are three. Especially because the trinity doctrine tends to imply three persons, not simply three aspects. There are seven Spirits (Revelation 1:4) and a Soul (Leviticus 26:11), which I believe is Yeshua but I don't think there are three persons.

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

Well there are definitely not three persons. Such a concept is not only polytheistic, but makes one think the Holy One (Blessed be He) is schizophrenic. And btw, the concept of the Ein Sof and the three manifestions is Kabbalistic in nature. If any one is to do digging on this, I would exercise extreme caution as this material is very deep and not for the new believer.

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

No. 'Adam did not become a living creature, but a living soul. I think that is a very important distinction. I remain unconvinced that there are three manifestations. I've done a touch of study, and as far as I can tell, there could be anywhere from two to nine manifestations of Father, but I tend to doubt that there are three. Especially because the trinity doctrine tends to imply three persons, not simply three aspects. There are seven Spirits (Revelation 1:4) and a Soul (Leviticus 26:11), which I believe is Yeshua but I don't think there are three persons.

Shalom,
David

Strongs Hebrew 5315 A breathing creature. i.e. animal or vitality. Soul is the word in English that conveys an air breathing creature. In Greek thought it is the immortal soul,or HOGWASH(IMO)! Dust and the breath of God = Adam/air breathing creature made in the image of God. Soul is a breathing creature.
Plato and the Greek immortal soul has caused more than it's share of false teaching! My favorite saying is dump the Christian garbage and start your new life with an all Hebrew mindset. Making sure you don't drag back in any old comfortable (stinking sneakers Oh, they feel so good!!!) dogmas or the next state of man will be worse off than before. My paraphrase of the "Unclean spirit".

God is one, but God fills the universe, had to contract himself to accomodate the heavens and the Earth, so is myriad.

A Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai warns us to not fall prey to the error of those who deny Gods oneness because they fail to understand that a single god can reveal himself in so many different, seamingly contradictory,ways. God is one. there is no contradictions in his behavior. The failure is in us, we cannot understand his ways. (excerpt from Rabbi Michael L, Munks book "Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet")

The three aspects of God is in Hebrew writings, not in scripture, so the trinitarian uses these writings to bolster their 3 in one God.

Again I am sorry for not having the information on the Hebrew teaching. If I find it I will let you know.

[Nachshon]

I beg to differ with Dr. Strong. Forgive me if that is stepping out of my place, a simple Hebrew student disagreeing with one of the most respected Hebrew scholars of the century. The soul is the breath itself, not the one who breathes, I think. Note what Scripture says, "and Adam became a living soul." Waite, Adam became a living soul? So Adam existed before he was a living soul. That leaves us to conclude either that Adam was merely a body, or that Adam was a pre-existing spirit. Because Adam means "dirt" or "earth" I tend to think that he was simply a body...and I've just lost my train of thought. lol.
"God is one, but God fills the universe, had to contract himself to accomodate the heavens and the Earth, so is myriad."
I'm sorry, but I failed to follow that. If you don't mind, would you restate it? I think it's a good point, I simply don't quite grasp what you're trying to say.
I have heard some small teaching on the Ein Sof...but I am very hesitant to accept anything Kabbalistic. I know, people have told me that John was a Kabbalist...I'm not certain I buy that, either. I do think he dealt heavily in the sod level of interpretation, but Kabbalah...I don't know.

Shalom,
David

[Dogface Of Judah]

Triune God from the
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Shema - Deut. 6:4 says:

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai Echad"
"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"

Everything rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scripture. If we are to base our doctrine on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

This idea of plurality within the Godhead is consistently rejected by Judaism despite all of the evidence given in the Tanakh & Brit Chadashah {OT & NT}. But we always return to Deut. 6:4 as final evidence of the singular nature of God.

Deut. 6:4, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other, which is used to affirm the fact that God is one and to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. BUT is it a valid use of this verse?

It should be pointed out, first of all, that the very words "our God" are actually the plural in Hebrew - literally "our Gods." The main argument, however, lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word ECHAD. A quick glance through the verses in the Hebrew text where this word is used will show that the word ECHAD does not mean an "absolute one," but "compound one."

For example, in Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one {ECHAD} day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage "and the two shall become one {ECHAD} flesh." In Ezra 2:64, we are told that the whole assembly was as one {ECHAD}, though of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one {ECHAD}. Thus, use of the word echad is Scripture shows it to be a compound unity, not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word which does mean an absolute unity and that is the word YACHID. This word is used in numerous places with the emphasis being on the meaning of "only one." If Moses had intended to teach God's absolute oneness as opposed to His compound oneness, this would have been a far more appropriate word to use. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of YACHID and chose to use it in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith" in place of ECHAD. However, Deut. 6:4, the Shema, does not use YACHID in reference to God.

Now that's the truth.

Ed
Psalms 144.1

[Mark]

It looks as though we're heading onto ground that has already been traveled. The thread on "trinity" can be found

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=75

It may be prudent for those wanting to continue this discussion, do so there.

Nachson, be careful with how you rely on Strong's. There is a big difference between a concordance dictionary and a lexicon. Strong's doesn't intend to define every word in Scripture according to its context. In many cases, the Strong's number only refers to a root source word, while the word actually in the text is compound or sometimes even a common derivitive. There is a difference between challenging the integrity of a renound scholar and recognizing the limitations of what he was trying to achieve.

[Blake]

Well, to bring this back to the point of the thread. The term "echad" cannot be used as proof for the false pantheon of g-ds known as T*r*i*n*i*t*y and I think to look at it in a way of "compound unity" like a military unit consisting of several individuals working as one is not viable either.
Echad however can be viewed in a way to show that G-d is infininite and can manifest Himself in infinite ways, while maintaining His absolute Oneness. He was revealed as a Burning Bush, sometimes as Angel of HaShem, sometimes as pillar of fire, sometimes as still small voice, and other countless manifestations. To single any three of these as more important than the other is pointless and is tantamount to putting HaShem in a box, thinking to limit the ways in which He works.

To have three different and EQUAL deities is paganism and violates the Noakhide commandmendment against idolatry and the commandment that we should have no other g-ds before HaShem's face. There is no way around this and if anyone maintains such a belief I urge them repent of their sin so they might have a place in a world to come.

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

I beg to differ with Dr. Strong. Forgive me if that is stepping out of my place, a simple Hebrew student disagreeing with one of the most respected Hebrew scholars of the century. The soul is the breath itself, not the one who breathes, I think. Note what Scripture says, "and Adam became a living soul." Waite, Adam became a living soul? So Adam existed before he was a living soul. That leaves us to conclude either that Adam was merely a body, or that Adam was a pre-existing spirit. Because Adam means "dirt" or "earth" I tend to think that he was simply a body...and I've just lost my train of thought. lol.
"God is one, but God fills the universe, had to contract himself to accomodate the heavens and the Earth, so is myriad."
I'm sorry, but I failed to follow that. If you don't mind, would you restate it? I think it's a good point, I simply don't quite grasp what you're trying to say.
I have heard some small teaching on the Ein Sof...but I am very hesitant to accept anything Kabbalistic. I know, people have told me that John was a Kabbalist...I'm not certain I buy that, either. I do think he dealt heavily in the sod level of interpretation, but Kabbalah...I don't know.

Shalom,
David

Before the creation of the heavens and the earth, there was only God, he had to contract himself for there to be room for the vastness of the universe, or diminish himself. A Hebrew teaching.

[Nachshon]

echad is very clearly the masculine counting number "one." I don't know why there is any controversy over the meaning of this word. The first day was not shown as a unity of evening and morning, butas the first of several, echad, a counting number.
But Mark is right. This was not the original intent of this thread. I'd like to reply to the other posts, because I hate to not have the last word <G>, but that wasn't the point of this thread. so...
Shalom,
David

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom chaverim,

Ed (Dogfaceofjudah), you had some great and valid points regarding the discussion. Much of my scriptural backup is in the thread that Mark pointed to. Just to clarify, my point was not that there are three separate equal G-d’s, only that we serve one Elohim with several different parts to His one being. Does not the scripture speak of the word of Adonai being sharper than any two edged sword dividing between soul and spirit? And, if it is able to divide between soul and spirit doesn’t it stand to reason that there is a soul and spirit within man? And, I don’t think there is any debate whether man has a physical body. There are your three parts to each human being. We are made in the image of Elohim…a compound being…One being, with three main parts to His anatomy…And, as to His physiology, that is another discussion. Mark is right, there is another thread dedicated to this discussion.

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=75

Therefore, this thread will be locked and discussion may be carried on there. I would caution everyone not to attack each other’s faith, walk, and salvation in this discussion as it would violate the forum rules and discipline will follow.

In the name of Yeshua our Messiah,

Reuel