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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 23, 2007 8:37:03 GMT -8
Hi all,
I feel kind of "stupid" but I don't care.
Can someone direct me to when and what the Old covenant was. When did it start.
My train of thought right now is that the old covenant is and starting with Moses. But I'm getting that that might night necessarily be the case.
Marc
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 23, 2007 13:25:00 GMT -8
Shalom Marc, Many Christians believe that there are only two covenants, but this is a serious mistake. The term "Old Covenant" is a major mis-nomer. There have been many covenants made between HaShem and man, each of which build upon the former. Here they are as I can think of them, off the top of my head: - Covenant with Adam/Chava (Eve)
- Covenant with Noach (Noah)
- Covenant with Avraham (Abraham)
- Same Covenant with Yitzchak (Isaac)
- Same Covenant with Ya'akov (Jacob)
- Same Covenant with Am Yisrael (Israel) at Har Sinai
- Same Covenant with Am Yisrael before crossing the Yarden (Jordan)
- Covenant with Melek (King) David
- Covenant of Sinai re-iterated by the Nevi'im (Prophets)
- Covenant of Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) re-iterated by Rabbi Y'hoshua ben-Yosef
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 23, 2007 14:26:49 GMT -8
Natanel is there just an Old Covenant versus the many covenants that you listed?
Marc
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 23, 2007 14:36:59 GMT -8
Marc,
No. There is no such covenant identified in the TaNaK as the "Old Covenant." It is a term that was invented by Christianity so that they could contrast it with the "New Covenant." Funny thing though. That "New Covenant" is actually very old. It is the Covenant spoken of by Yirmeyahu that predates Rabbi Y'hoshuah.
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Post by Nachshon on Jan 23, 2007 16:21:24 GMT -8
I'm going to disagree with Natanel in a few particulars. In Hebrews were told that the New covenant coming into being means that the old is soon to fade away. By inferrence, there must be an old covenant. In Jeremiah 31, we are also told that there was an old covenant, because it says that He will make a new covenant, not like the covenant which He made with our fathers in the day He brought them out of the wilderness. Surprisingly enough, the covenant that He made is not the  . The Old Covenant is found in Deuteronomy 30. That is the basic summary of the "Old Covenant." It is true that there have been many different covenants, not just two. But there is a specific covenant that the New Covenant replaces. Now, here is the key difference between the covenants. Compair Deut. 30:14 with Jer. 31:32. What is the difference? Only one. The old was in our hearts and mouthes. The New is in our hearts and inward parts. In other words, this isn't just lip service anymore. This is for real. This time we're not going to fake it. You can't fake it anymore. Either you're doing it, and you're doing it because you love Messiah, or you're not doing it. The Old Covenant is in our hearts and mouthes. The New Covenant is in our hearts, and inmost parts. Shalom, David |
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 24, 2007 1:19:32 GMT -8
OK so it's referring to the . The new covenant is written in our hearts and minds, our inward parts like you said. He will make a new covenant, not like the covenant which He made with our fathers in the day He brought them out of the wilderness.
in the day I believe is key? Because what specifically was "given" in the day He brought them out of the wilderness? "I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and from the house of bondage" Is that the beginning of the "old covenant" as you say? Or what is referred to the "old covenant"? God from that declaration gives Israel the Ten Commandments. Then you have Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy after? Marc I'm going to disagree with Natanel in a few particulars. In Hebrews were told that the New covenant coming into being means that the old is soon to fade away. By inferrence, there must be an old covenant. In Jeremiah 31, we are also told that there was an old covenant, because it says that He will make a new covenant, not like the covenant which He made with our fathers in the day He brought them out of the wilderness. Surprisingly enough, the covenant that He made is not the . The Old Covenant is found in Deuteronomy 30. That is the basic summary of the "Old Covenant." It is true that there have been many different covenants, not just two. But there is a specific covenant that the New Covenant replaces. Now, here is the key difference between the covenants. Compair Deut. 30:14 with Jer. 31:32. What is the difference? Only one. The old was in our hearts and mouthes. The New is in our hearts and inward parts. In other words, this isn't just lip service anymore. This is for real. This time we're not going to fake it. You can't fake it anymore. Either you're doing it, and you're doing it because you love Messiah, or you're not doing it. The Old Covenant is in our hearts and mouthes. The New Covenant is in our hearts, and inmost parts. Shalom, David |
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Post by Mark on Jan 24, 2007 4:39:24 GMT -8
There are at least a couple of ways to look at the "covenants" of the Bible. The most common perspective is to view that their are two major covenants: the Covenant at Sinai and the Covenant of the New Testament (the Covenant of Christ). This distinguishes Old Testament as being under the Old Covenant and New Testament (the Church Age or Age of Grace (biting my tongue)). This view holds the Covenants as distinct, separate and exclusive.
Natanel is correct that there are a whole lot of Covenants in the Bible. Consider them as he listed them: each of the Covenants (with the exception made by the Church concerning the Covenant at Sinai) remains valid today. No covenant abbrogates or annuls the previous covenant, rather fits uniformly within the boundaries of the previous covenant. This leads to the second understanding that, in essence, there is only one Covenant: but through the ages, it is renewed and becomes clearer in its definition until it finally rests upon the shoulders of Messiah Yeshua.
Keep in mind, this is a thirty second summary of a three day (six hour) presentation. I hope it clears more than muddies and encourages you for future study.
Mark
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Post by Nachshon on Jan 24, 2007 9:12:01 GMT -8
Akhiy Marc, I believe that the Old Covenant could be said to be the entire , but it is where it is written that is the key, and that is given in D'varim (Deuteronomy) 30. Because Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant is "My " in our hearts and inward parts. Is it in stone (our mouthes) or internalized (our inward parts)? Shalom, David |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Feb 2, 2007 9:51:09 GMT -8
I'm going to disagree with Natanel in a few particulars. In Hebrews were told that the New covenant coming into being means that the old is soon to fade away. By inferrence, there must be an old covenant. In Jeremiah 31, we are also told that there was an old covenant, because it says that He will make a new covenant, not like the covenant which He made with our fathers in the day He brought them out of the wilderness. Surprisingly enough, the covenant that He made is not the . The Old Covenant is found in Deuteronomy 30. That is the basic summary of the "Old Covenant." It is true that there have been many different covenants, not just two. But there is a specific covenant that the New Covenant replaces. Now, here is the key difference between the covenants. Compair Deut. 30:14 with Jer. 31:32. What is the difference? Only one. The old was in our hearts and mouthes. The New is in our hearts and inward parts. In other words, this isn't just lip service anymore. This is for real. This time we're not going to fake it. You can't fake it anymore. Either you're doing it, and you're doing it because you love Messiah, or you're not doing it. The Old Covenant is in our hearts and mouthes. The New Covenant is in our hearts, and inmost parts. Shalom, David I am going to step out on unknown territory in this forum for the first time and disagree with what is written here. Please forgive me. For now, I will just say these things regarding the chapter to which you are referring and those around it: - What was the writer's subject before this?
- What are the added words (usually italicized)?
- If you remove the italicized words and read this portion in context, what is it really talking about?
Bless you! Pardon me -- I am referring to the reading in Hebrews. . |
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 3, 2007 14:28:39 GMT -8
James Murdock translation of the Peshitto, extra information removed, "In that he said a new, he made the first old; and that which is old and decaying, is near to dissolution." Hebrews 8:13
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Feb 3, 2007 22:03:40 GMT -8
That is good.
What I am referring to is this: are these portions about a covenant (because that is what we have been taught by the church, and it is so ingrained in us) or are they about the priesthood.
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 4, 2007 3:41:45 GMT -8
Tzav_laTzav,
I'll take a shot here. I'm doing a study on the Redemtion of the TaNaK and G-d has opened my eyes and getting "revelation" everyday.
Truths are being revealed to me in small pieces.
Romans 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
The blood of bulls and goats DOES sanctify the flesh. It doesn't say it doesn't.
Romans 9:14how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Verse 13 and 14 have nothing to do with eachother per say.
Verse 13 is that the blood of bulls and goats sanctifies us so that we can worship in the Temple today. Doesn't have to do with eternity.
Verse 14 has to do with eternity but don't get the verses mixed up to mean that the "Temple system" is no more as I have done previously my self.
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 4, 2007 7:19:43 GMT -8
That is good. What I am referring to is this: are these portions about a covenant (because that is what we have been taught by the church, and it is so ingrained in us) or are they about the priesthood. They can't be about a priesthood, because Father said, "And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations." Num. 10:8 (KJV) And also, "In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which [is] before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: [it shall be] a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel." Exd. 27:21 (KJV) |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 4, 2007 7:22:06 GMT -8
One is temporal.
People think that because they believe in Yeshua, they are able to touch the mountain, Sinai.
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 4, 2007 7:35:56 GMT -8
One is temporal. People think that because they believe in Yeshua, they are able to touch the mountain, Sinai. Marc That's not a difficult argument. It is stated that is l'owlam and 'ad-'owlam, but it says nothing about being b'owlam |
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. The Old Covenant is found in Deuteronomy 30. That is the basic summary of the "Old Covenant." It is true that there have been many different covenants, not just two. But there is a specific covenant that the New Covenant replaces. Now, here is the key difference between the covenants. Compair Deut. 30:14 with Jer. 31:32. What is the difference? Only one. The old was in our hearts and mouthes. The New is in our hearts and inward parts. In other words, this isn't just lip service anymore. This is for real. This time we're not going to fake it. You can't fake it anymore. Either you're doing it, and you're doing it because you love Messiah, or you're not doing it. The Old Covenant is 
