What are we called?

[Nachshon]

I've been thinking about this problem, the term "Messianic" automatically makes people think of J4J, which we really aren't at all associated with. Historically, -keeping believers in Yeshua were called Nazarenes by guys like Epiphanius, but that name, in English is a Chri*tian denomination, in Hebrew in America that name has been hijacked by the Ebionites (no offense to guys like Livni, but that's what y'all would have been called historically. See what Eusebius has to say.) and in Modern Hebrew N'tzariy means "Catholic."
It's really funny because in Modern Hebrew we're called Messianics, which is the equivalent of Chri*tians, historically what the anti- church has been called, and they're called N'tzariym, historically what the -keeping believers have been called.
So I've been trying to figure out #1 if we really need a term to referr to our method of practicing Judaism, and, if we do, what is a historically accurate term that doesn't mean something else to people these days? Any thoughts?

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Chizuk Emunah]

I used to identify as a Netzari, but now I follow Rebbe Nachman m'Breslev.

[Nachshon]

So what about people like myself? I generally identify myself as a Karaite, the only problem is that the Karaites define Karaism as believing only in TaNaKH, though that isn't what the word literally means. Plus, I follow the halacha of Rabbiy Yehoshu'a, so I wear tephillin, and I don't tie my tzitziyot like the Karaites, and I bless before as well as after I eat. I generally pray three, rather than two times a day...oy! I could identify myself as a Zaduq, only then they would assume that I don't believe in the resurrection or in angels.

[Nachshon]

Nudnikim. Hey, we annoy the phooey out of the rest of Judaism, don't we?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Well, some may annoy other Jews, but I am not among them (or perhaps I am and just don't know it ). Like I said, my beliefs are now consistent with Orthodox Judaism.

[Nachshon]

I was referring to the fact that most can't stand the idea that we could believe that Rabbiy Yehoshu'a was Mashiyakh, and still be consistent with Judaism. :-D

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Nachshon]

Oh, by the way, I thought it was interesting when I read that Schneerson said that a rebbe was "The essence and substance of God in a body." Interesting.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Chizuk Emunah]

Well yeah, if you think about it, it makes sense. A Rebbe is HaShem's representative on Earth. They teach on a daily basis and often render halachic decisions. They literally do the work of HaShem. I really like the way he put it though. I know that he was certainly a great man; I'd like to get my hands on some of his material.

Shalom,
Natanel

[Nachshon]

I thought it was a beautiful explanation of what The Rebbe is.
I've noticed so many teachings of the Chabad are like those of Yehoshu'a and His Talmidiym, I almost wonder if they didn't borrow from them. Like the "temple of time" and Peter's teaching on the Spiritual Temple, and the teaching on rebbes, and the idea that a man dying doesn't disqualify him from being Mashiyakh...it's really interesting.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

It's unfortunate, and I think unbiblical, that we find ourselves needing to aleign ourselves to an identifiable persuasion within our believ system. I am called by some a Messianic, by some a Messianic Jew (though I am goy), by some a Christian. I don't have any problem with any of these titles. They are all accurate in their basic textual definition. They are all inaccurate if compared to specific sect within each of these communities.

It doesn't matter what you call yourself- there's going to be some bozo who calls himself the same thing who you find grossly misrepresents your belief system.

I told one woman, some years ago, "I believe in the Lord of Lords and God of God kwho created heaven, earth and everything that is in it. I believe and worship the God who is creator and sustainer of all living things, who controls the course of the stars and who is specifically and consciously responsible for every single breath you take." She said, "Oooh... < significant paus > Is that anything like a Jehovah's Witness?" I said, "No... That's nothing like a Jehovah's Witness."

Paul condemns the Corinthian Church for drawing lines and building camps within our faith to distinguish us from one another according to our various teachers. Here's the problem: if my focus is upon following Paul as my teacher, I have removed myself once from the source of truth which is at my disposal. Paul's intent of 1st Corinthians 1:11-13 is to demonstrate that if we are sincerely walking after Messiah as our primary Lord, Master and Teacher, then we will be walking in ever closer and closer harmony with one another. If we divide ourselves among the camps of various students of Messiah (or other theology) we will build walls of division between us which may cross paths from time to time; but will never represent the Unity in Messiah that we are called and expected to be.

Hear what Messiah Yeshua said:
But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers. (9) And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven. (10) Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ. Mat 23:8-10 MKJV

This doesn't mean that no one should be in a teaching position. Yet, James answers that our tendeny to jockey for that position of authority is very dangerous (James 3:1). This doesn't mean that we shouldn't heed the counsel of wise and godly men whose teachings have been written and preserved over the centuries. The proverbs tell us that in the multitude of wise men there is safety. I do believe that the teaching is that we should be very shy of distinguishing ourselves from others by following after a particular camp.

Paul says, "There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." (Epheisians 4:4-6). If this is the case, either this Body is an epileptic nightmare or there are many who define themselves as part of the body who really are not.

Messiah Yeshua said that no one can serve two masters. I believe that this becomes very much our attempt when we aleign ourselves and define ourselves too closely to a particular camp withing Christainity or Messianic Judaism. Follow Messiah. In one is in step with Messiah you will be in step with him. Walk together with your teachers but not behind them- never take your eyes off Messiah Yeshua.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I've been thinking about this problem, the term "Messianic" automatically makes people think of J4J, which we really aren't at all associated with.

Not really. Have you ever read the book "Messianic Jewish Manifesto" by David H. Stern? It covers the subject fairly well. In my experience very few people confuse me with "Jews For Jesus" when I communicate to them that I am a Messianic Jew. And, that is what I am. You know, Rabbi Sha'ul covered this issue a long time ago. And, I might add that his commentary is authoritative halachah in Messianic Judaism and on this forum...

"1Co 3:1 Brothers, I couldn't speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly, as to babies in Messiah.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for you weren't yet ready. Indeed, not even now are you ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still fleshly. For insofar as there is jealousy, strife, and factions among you, aren't you fleshly, and don't you walk in the ways of men?
1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I follow Sha'ul," and another, "I follow Apollos," aren't you fleshly?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Apollos, and who is Sha'ul, but servants through whom you believed; and each as the Lord gave to him?
1Co 3:6 I planted. Apollos watered. But God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are the same, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's farming, God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But let each man be careful how he builds on it.
1Co 3:11 For no one can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Yeshua the Messiah.
1Co 3:12 But if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or stubble;
1Co 3:13 each man's work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself will test what sort of work each man's work is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work remains which he built on it, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1Co 3:16 Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, which you are.
1Co 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone thinks that he is wise among you in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness."
1Co 3:20 And again, "The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless."
1Co 3:21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,
1Co 3:22 whether Sha'ul, or Apollos, or Kefa, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours,
1Co 3:23 and you are Messiah's, and Messiah is God's."

There you have it, we are Messiah's, we are not Kariates, not orthodox, not ect....therefore, we are "Messianic" believers, which means believers and followers pertaining to Messiah. Or, if you are Hebrew inclined, "M'shiychiy". And, if you are Jewish by blood or have fully converted to a life of and to that of the life of a Jew throwing your lot in with the Jewish people, than you are a Messianic Jew. It is nothing to be embarrased about. Regardless, for those living for Messiah and His Father's words, we are all Messianic believers, Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Prodigal Girl]

To me, this is very much related to the question 'What is a Jew"? It depends on who you ask? Do we go by what someone says, or by what the Bible says? What DOES the Bible say about it? I believe only after we answer this question correctly, can we answer the question of what we are to be called.
The question of "What is a Jew" is, according to my Israeli (non-believer) friend, very much THE hot topic in Israel today.

[Chizuk Emunah]

How is what a Jew is a hot topic? I don't understand that. Is it because so many in Israel are secular? I thought halacha was pretty clear on what defines a jew and what does not. I would think that the bigger topic would be how to get rid of Olmert and friends before they give up Judea permanently.

Shavua Tov all,
Natanel

[Prodigal Girl]

www.realmessiah.com/jew.htm

To address the last question by the last poster.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

If someone has converted to a life of Judaism and also believes that Yeshua is Messiah, than I believe that such a one could be called a Messianic Jew. If one is already Jewish, practices Judaism, and believes in Yeshua, they of course are also a Messianic Jew. If not, they could be called Messianic Gentiles.

But, "Messianic" is an easy generic term to cover everyone that practices a Hebraic faith as expressed in and believes Yeshua is Messiah. "Messianic" means the same as "Christian" except it implies a Hebraic expression of a faith in Messiah. If there is not already a thread on "who is a Jew?', we should start a separate discussion regarding this.

Todah v'shalom,

Reuel