Post by Curt on Jul 20, 2004 19:36:06 GMT -8
Shalom Reuel:
You stated:"The law written by G'd Himself, and the law written by G'd through Moses are both from G'd, and are both His , law. There are both to be obeyed, and this is clearly communicated by our Master Yeshua..."
Curt: The law written by God Himself was written by the finger of God on stone. The law of Moses was not written by God but written by the hand of Moses. The law of Moses was God inspired. I agree they both are found in the or the first five books of the Bible and they are both God inspired. There was a time when both were to be obeyed. What were trying to determine now is has God changed any of that.
Reuel: "n Hebrew terminology, "the Law, and Prophets" most definitely refers to The TeNaKh which includes -all- of the , Nevi'im (prophets), Ketuvim (writings)."
Curt: First I would like to say the Bible interprets what it means by the context of the verses and by examples in other parts of the Bible. That is why we have to look to the rest of this chapter to see what Jesus means. Sometimes but not always we can take a dictionary definition and it gives us added meaning but there are times when the Bible will interpret the meaning differently. Example: People who take the definition of "Everlasting" and feel it always means on and on into endless infinity run into trouble when the Bible intreprets the meaning differently in a specific example.
I'm willing to accept your definition of "Law and the Prophets" if the context the verses are found in do not contradict that definition. I believe the context contradicts that definition.
Another important distinction the Bible verses you quoted do not say "Law and the Prophets" but say "the law, or the prophets". The "Law and the Prophets" is a title as you say refers to the TeNaKh. "the law, or the prophets " is a phrase which leaves you with the same vagueness, Which Law?
Matthew 5:16 ""Think not that I am come to destroy the" law, or the prophets":
The law written with the finger of God, the law written by the hand of Moses, or both laws. That leaves you with the same option of going back into the rest of the chapter and letting the Bible interpret what it means. God has two different laws in the , the Law of God written by the finger of God and the law of Moses written by the hand of Moses. God clearly see's the distinction or He wouldn't point out the differences which I pointed out in an earlier writing..
Joshua 8:32 "31as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the BOOK of the LAW of MOSES: "an altar of whole stones over which no man has wielded an iron tool."[1] And they offered on it burnt offerings to the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32And there, in the presence of the children of Israel, he wrote on the stones a copy of THE LAW OF MOSES, which he had written'
Reuel: "No, the scriptures says if Yeshua came do away with any of that He is a false prophet."
Curt: Show me where the Bible says that.
Reuel: "What Yeshua is doing in the passages that you have outlined above is rightly interpret some of the misconceptions of that some of the leadership of the day had"
VERSES FROM ABOVE
Curt:"Matthew 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce."
This law comes from the law written by Moses and Jesus is not agreeing with this law. In fact He says:
Matthew 5:32 " But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual imorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."
Giving someone a "certificate of divorce" because the wife of their youth got old is a pretty big misconception. It has nothing to do with "adultery" which is the only reason God will accept for divorce. A certificate of divorce comes from the law of Moses adultery comes from the Ten Commandments. Even here Jesus elevates the Ten Commandments above the law of Moses.
Mark 10:4 "The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" testing Him.
3And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her."
5And Jesus answered and said to them, "BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF YOUR HEART HE WROTE YOU THIS PRECEPT. 6But from the beginning of the creation, God "made them male and female.'[1] 7"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8and the two shall become one flesh';[2] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
10In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11So He said to them, "WHOEVER DIVORCES HIS WIFE and MARRIES ANOTHER COMMITS ADULTERY against her. 12And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."
Reuel: "Nothing He said was against any of the that G'd had Moses write."
Curt: Jesus said the only reason Moses wrote the laws for" certificates of divorce" was because of the hardness of their hearts. Not too highly thought of law wouldn't you say. At least Jesus thought it wasn't.
Mark 10:5 " .........Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."
Matthew 5:38 "5) 38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'[6] 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person.
Exodus 21:23 " 23But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Matthew 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person......"
As you can see this is more than a misconception this is an outright reversal of the law of Moses. With the law of Moses it is tit for tat. But Jesus says not to resist evil. Doesn't lend much credibilty to the idea that Jesus meant that the entire is what he meant when He said He came not to destroy the law.
Reuel: "f Yeshua was doing away with His Father's through Moshe, please show us the actual commandment in regards to Matthew 5:43 that he is doing away with (book, chapter, verse)."
Curt: Matthew 5:43 : "6) 43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor[7] and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,"
Leviticus 19:18 ". You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, BUT YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF: I am the LORD"
The scribes and Pharaisees took "But you shall love your neighbor as yourself" from Moses law and then made a principle up which was "you shall hate your enemy". That is why Jesus said "You have heard that it was said " You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." It probablly seemed logical to the scribes and pharisees that if law of Moses commanded to love your neighbor that they should hate their enemies
But of course Jesus just didn't council them about their misconceptions. He outright reversed their belief in the very next verse.
Matthew 5:44 "4But I say to you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you
In this case Jesus affirmed one of Moses's laws but reversed scribe and pharisees beliefs. More important in this case the law of Moses stating "You shall love your neighbor" perfectly coincides with the Ten Commandments because when you keep the last six you love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 19:17-19 "So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One that is God. But if you want to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. He said to Him, "WHICH ONES?" JESUS SAID, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Reuel: " This is a very serious misconception as it teaches that Yeshua is doing away with His father's words through the prophet Moses which would make him a false prophet, and to be rejected. This is one of the main reasons why Jewish people reject Yeshua The Messiah today"
Curt: As youv'e read the eye for an eye verse comes directly from the law of Moses and Jesus reversed it. Jesus also outright rejected scribe and pharisee beliefs that it was alright to hate their enemies. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy concerning Himself and the odds against that happening are astronomical. That is why He was the Messiah and a true prophet. The Jews are wrong about Jesus being a false prophet and their wrong about Him not being the Messiah. They wanted a King who who would deliver them from Roman oppression not a servant. They cherish the law of Moses more than they do the truth. Show me in the Bible where Jesus is a false prophet because He changes some of the law of Moses. I showed you where He did reverse a law of Moses.
To end on a positive note if you read Matthew 5:21-37
you see which law He is not destroying. It's the Ten Commandments.