Hebrews 8

[Mpossoff]

Hi all,

Paul is sometimes hard to understand.

Can someone please give an interpretation.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[c]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I'm not understanding.

Thanks,

Marc

[Yitzchak]

Marc,

The best way to understand the verses you quoted are to look at them in the context surrounding them.

I am not fond of the fact that we look at the Bible with chapters and verses, as this is not how the original appeared.

However, when looking at Hebrews 8 from the first verse, one recognizes that the context is based on the Temple service, and the office of the Cohen HaGadol (High Priest). What is being taught by Shaul is that the covenant changed as a result of the sacrifices changing. Through Messiah's sacrifice it is no longer necessary to offer up the blood of bulls and goats, as we have a Great High Priest who has cleansed all both on earth and in the heavenlies.

If one were to reduce their argument to only the verses you quoted, one could also make the argument that this New Covenant that is spoken of has not fully taken effect, as it says, "all shall know Me."

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mpossoff]

Thanks Yitzchak,

Many "Christians" proclaim that the Old Covenant is no longer, the .

As I said in another thread I realize that isn't so.

If Jesus came to ablish the law as many say then why is He quoting from something that He's ready to abolish? Doesn't make sense. That many people say that the law was abolished but in Hebrews 8 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I'll be honest Yitzchak I've been with the Messiah for almost a year and have a "Christian" mind set if you will that is slowly being "de-programmed" if you will.

Marc

[Yitzchak]

mpossoff said:

Thanks Yitzchak,

Many "Christians" proclaim that the Old Covenant is no longer, the .

I have really simplified my argument regarding this Christian attitude. I simply ask them if they believe that Jesus is G-d. When they say yes, I ask them if G-d gave the . When they say, I ask if that means that Jesus had to give the . When they respond yes to that, I ask them how is it that they believe that the is bondage, because to believe this would mean that Jesus put you in bondage, only to come at a later date to get you out of bondage. Makes no sense.

As I said in another thread I realize that isn't so.

I am glad that you realize this.

If Jesus came to ablish the law as many say then why is He quoting from something that He's ready to abolish? Doesn't make sense. That many people say that the law was abolished but in Hebrews 8 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.[/auote]

The important point that the church leaves out is that this New Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah, and quoted in Hebrews 8 is with Israel and the house of Judah. This is where the concept of replacement theology creeps in, as the chuch views itself as "spiritual Israel"

I'll be honest Yitzchak I've been with the Messiah for almost a year and have a "Christian" mind set if you will that is slowly being "de-programmed" if you will.

Been there done that. You will find it interesting to note that while I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, when I came to the L-rd it was in a church. I subsequently became a pastor, and did this for many years. My ministry within the church was always to open the Hebraic perspective to the scriptures. Eventually, I had to realize that I was in the wrong place. That Yeshua did not come to start a new religion. That it was wrong for me as a Jew to be assimilated into something that was foriegn to me.

When one really takes the time to research, it is easy to note that Yeshua was not against , that Paul was not against , and as a matter of fact, they were both observant. They both spoke and wrote within the accepted Rabbinical literary, and linguistic styles of the day.

Bottom line, in most cases they were Jews speaking to other Jews. If we only knew.

I am glad that it is only a year, iand that Avinu (Our Father) is beginning to reveal truth to you.

May you be blessed as you continue to seek Him and His truth.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mpossoff]

Yitzchak Paul is often times hard to interpret for me.

I download from that sight you gave me the study book on Hebrews.

Sometimes with Paul I see that he is observant and other times I see otherwise.

What about the 613 mitvah's in reagrds to Paul?

Marc

[Walter]

mpossoff said:

Thanks Yitzchak,

Many "Christians" proclaim that the Old Covenant is no longer, the .

With those who say the is no longer apllicable to todays believers I show them first

2 Timothy 3:16-17All Scripture is inspired by Elohom and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.



Then ask them:

"This is NT, is it STILL applicable to believers today?
By the way ALL they had then for ALL Scripture was OT"

And then ask them:

"So isn't Elohim, thru the NT, saying that His Law is STILL profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness?

Isn't Elohim, thru the NT saying that His Law is still needed so that the man of Elohim may be adequately, equipped for every good work?"

This will get them thinking - a seed planted.


Then I show them:

Psalms 1:1-6
(1) How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
(2) But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
(3) He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.
(4) The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
(5) Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
(6) For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.


Then I ask them if this Psalm is STILL profitable for todays believer.

Then I say:
"Oh by the way notice it says IN His Law, not ON His law?
That means OBEDIENCE"


I then tell them to go prayerfully read and consider Psalm 119 with such verses as:

Psalms 119:1-176
(1) a Aleph. How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.
(2) How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, Who seek Him with all their heart.
(3) They also do no unrighteousness; They walk in His ways.
(4) You have ordained Your precepts, That we should keep them diligently.
(5) Oh that my ways may be established To keep Your statutes!
(6) Then I shall not be ashamed When I look upon all Your commandments.

(8) I shall keep Your statutes; Do not forsake me utterly!

(10) With all my heart I have sought You; Do not let me wander from Your commandments.

(12) Blessed are You, O LORD; Teach me Your statutes.
(13) With my lips I have told of All the ordinances of Your mouth.
(14) I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies, As much as in all riches.
(15) I will meditate on Your precepts And regard Your ways.
(16) I shall delight in Your statutes; I shall not forget Your word.

(18) Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.
(19) I am a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me.
(20) My soul is crushed with longing After Your ordinances at all times.
(21) You rebuke the arrogant, the cursed, Who wander from Your commandments.

(23) Even though princes sit and talk against me, Your servant meditates on Your statutes.

(26) I have told of my ways, and You have answered me; Teach me Your statutes.
(27) Make me understand the way of Your precepts, So I will meditate on Your wonders.

(29) Remove the false way from me, And graciously grant me Your law.
(30) I have chosen the faithful way; I have placed Your ordinances before me.

(32) I shall run the way of Your commandments, For You will enlarge my heart.
(33) h He. Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes, And I shall observe it to the end.
(34) Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law And keep it with all my heart.
(35) Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, For I delight in it.


(39) Turn away my reproach which I dread, For Your ordinances are good.
(40) Behold, I long for Your precepts; Revive me through Your righteousness.


(43) And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I wait for Your ordinances.
(44) So I will keep Your law continually, Forever and ever.
(45) And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.

(47) I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love.
(48) And I shall lift up my hands to Your commandments, Which I love; And I will meditate on Your statutes.


(51) The arrogant utterly deride me, Yet I do not turn aside from Your law.
(52) I have remembered Your ordinances from of old, O LORD, And comfort myself.
(53) Burning indignation has seized me because of the wicked, Who forsake Your law.
(54) Your statutes are my songs In the house of my pilgrimage.
(55) O LORD, I remember Your name in the night, And keep Your law.
(56) This has become mine, That I observe Your precepts.
(57) x Heth. The LORD is my portion; I have promised to keep Your words.

(59) I considered my ways And turned my feet to Your testimonies.
(60) I hastened and did not delay To keep Your commandments.
(61) The cords of the wicked have encircled me, But I have not forgotten Your law.
(62) At midnight I shall rise to give thanks to You Because of Your righteous ordinances.
(63) I am a companion of all those who fear You, And of those who keep Your precepts.
(64) The earth is full of Your lovingkindness, O LORD; Teach me Your statutes.

(66) Teach me good discernment and knowledge, For I believe in Your commandments.
(67) Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.
(68) You are good and do good; Teach me Your statutes.
(69) The arrogant have forged a lie against me; With all my heart I will observe Your precepts.
(70) Their heart is covered with fat, But I delight in Your law.
(71) It is good for me that I was afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.
(72) The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
(73) y Yodh. Your hands made me and fashioned me; Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.

(77) May Your compassion come to me that I may live, For Your law is my delight.
(78) May the arrogant be ashamed, for they subvert me with a lie; But I shall meditate on Your precepts.

(80) May my heart be blameless in Your statutes, So that I will not be ashamed.

(83) Though I have become like a wineskin in the smoke, I do not forget Your statutes.

(85) The arrogant have dug pits for me, Men who are not in accord with Your law.
(86) All Your commandments are faithful; They have persecuted me with a lie; help me!
(87) They almost destroyed me on earth, But as for me, I did not forsake Your precepts.

(92) If Your law had not been my delight, Then I would have perished in my affliction.
(93) I will never forget Your precepts, For by them You have revived me.
(94) I am Yours, save me; For I have sought Your precepts.

(96) I have seen a limit to all perfection; Your commandment is exceedingly broad.
(97) m Mem. O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.
(98) Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine.

(100) I understand more than the aged, Because I have observed Your precepts.

(102) I have not turned aside from Your ordinances, For You Yourself have taught me.

(104) From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

(106) I have sworn and I will confirm it, That I will keep Your righteous ordinances.

(108) O accept the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, And teach me Your ordinances.
(109) My life is continually in my hand, Yet I do not forget Your law.
(110) The wicked have laid a snare for me, Yet I have not gone astray from Your precepts.

(112) I have inclined my heart to perform Your statutes Forever, even to the end.
(113) s Samekh. I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.
(114) You are my hiding place and my shield; I wait for Your word.
(115) Depart from me, evildoers, That I may observe the commandments of my God.

(117) Uphold me that I may be safe, That I may have regard for Your statutes continually.
(118) You have rejected all those who wander from Your statutes, For their deceitfulness is useless.


(124) Deal with Your servant according to Your lovingkindness And teach me Your statutes.

(126) It is time for the LORD to act, For they have broken Your law.
(127) Therefore I love Your commandments Above gold, yes, above fine gold.
(128) Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way.

(131) I opened my mouth wide and panted, For I longed for Your commandments.


(134) Redeem me from the oppression of man, That I may keep Your precepts.
(135) Make Your face shine upon Your servant, And teach me Your statutes.
(136) My eyes shed streams of water, Because they do not keep Your law.

(141) I am small and despised, Yet I do not forget Your precepts.
(142) Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
(143) Trouble and anguish have come upon me, Yet Your commandments are my delight.

(145) q Qoph. I cried with all my heart; answer me, O LORD! I will observe Your statutes.

(149) Hear my voice according to Your lovingkindness; Revive me, O LORD, according to Your ordinances.
(150) Those who follow after wickedness draw near; They are far from Your law.
(151) You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

(153) r Resh. Look upon my affliction and rescue me, For I do not forget Your law.

(155) Salvation is far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes.
(156) Great are Your mercies, O LORD; Revive me according to Your ordinances.
(157) Many are my persecutors and my adversaries, Yet I do not turn aside from Your testimonies.
(158) I behold the treacherous and loathe them, Because they do not keep Your word.
(159) Consider how I love Your precepts; Revive me, O LORD, according to Your lovingkindness.
(160) The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

(163) I hate and despise falsehood, But I love Your law.
(164) Seven times a day I praise You, Because of Your righteous ordinances.
(165) Those who love Your law have great peace, And nothing causes them to stumble.
(166) I hope for Your salvation, O LORD, And do Your commandments.


(168) I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies, For all my ways

(171) Let my lips utter praise, For You teach me Your statutes.
(172) Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.
(173) Let Your hand be ready to help me, For I have chosen Your precepts.
(174) I long for Your salvation, O LORD, And Your law is my delight.
(175) Let my soul live that it may praise You, And let Your ordinances help me.
(176) I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I do not forget Your commandments.


Then I will let the Holy Spirit do His work

[Walter]

yitzchak said:

I am not fond of the fact that we look at the Bible with chapters and verses, as this is not how the original appeared.

I totally agree.

I also don't like the division of Scripture with OT/NT, I think of it as all ONE

[Mpossoff]

Wow Walter Praise the Lord!!!!

I thank the Lord that through you I am given more understanding. Prayed and read 2Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture! As you said there wasn't any NT scripture when referring to All scripture it has to be the OT cause there wasn't any other scripture!

Thanks!

Marc

[Nachshon]

mpossoff said:

Hi all,

Paul is sometimes hard to understand.

Can someone please give an interpretation.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[c]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I'm not understanding.

Thanks,

Marc

Most importantly, we must realise that Sha'ul is quoting Jeremiah 31, in which the New Covenant is revealed more fully than anywhere else in Scripture. It is interesting that this covenant only differs from the old one in a single point. Jeremiah tells us (Jer. 31:32) that the covenant will be "I will give my into their hearts, and into their inward parts." It is the same as in the Old Covenant. In Deut. 30 we even find out that that covenant was written in our hearts, and in our mouthes. The only difference is that it has moved from our mouthes to our inmost parts. I believe that this means that we will no longer just serve Him with our lips, but that we will truly serve Him with our whole beings. That is the difference between the old and new covenants.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

We often get a little sloppy when reading Scripture (particularly in our English translations), thinking that we understand the depth of a passage at first glance (often finding conflict in our misinterpretation). It clearly states, in Hebrews 8, that the Old Covenant (the Covenant given through Moses, is vanishing away. When we stop there and try to manipulate or explain away the text with other references, we become as guilty as our theological oponents, using the same methods of eisegetical interpretation as they use (eisegesis is the process of starting with a theological position, then finding ways to support your doctrine as opposed to trying to understand the Scripture in context).

The issue that we might consider is WHEN the Old Covenant is passed away. Nachson does well to establish that the writer of Hebrews (not necessarily Paul, but that doesn't much matter) is quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34. In this passage, Adonai delineates the criteria under which the New Covenant is established: the law will be in the hearts of all men (not needing any instruction regarding it), all of Israel will have (walk in) a relationship with Adonai. It goes on to specify that as long as there is a sun and a moon in the sky, the people of Israel will remain as His covenant people.

Now take a look at a more familiar passage. In Matthew 5:17-18, our Messiah declares what is the end of the : when all things are fulfilled (Greek word: ginomai) and when heaven and earth pass away.

Finally, let's turn to Revelation 21:1-6. The first thing that we see is that there is a new heaven and a new earth. Secondly, we see Adonai walking once again in itimate communion with men. Finally, in verse 6, Messiah Yeshua declares, "Ginomai!" (It is done.) Establishing at this point that all things are fulfilled. So, in the New Kingdom, all things are made new and the Old Covenant ceases to hold any affect.

Now, as we go back to Hebrews 8, pay very close attention to the pronoun participles in their tense:

verse 3: every high priest IS ordained... there is much speculation as to whether or not Hebrews was written before or after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. We know that it was written very near that time. Such statements as this give weight to the position that Hebrews was written before the destruction- the priests are currently ministering in the Temple and sacrifices are being made.

verse 5: the priests are serving as a shadow of things established in the Heavenlies. This idea is repeated in Hebrews 10. Comparing chapters 8 and 10 are critical because in chapter 10 the writer states that the sacrifices of the Old Covenant NEVER atoned for sin (Hebrews 10:4). This is a consistent message. Hebrews 4:2 declares that salvation has always been according to faith (evidence of faith being the key to righteousness is further the subject of Hebrews 11 and 12- even of those "under the Old Covenant"). One cannot use Hebrews 8 to say the Law was for them then and grace is for us now. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Notice the tense in verse 5: "who are currently serving as an example of heavenly things..." The priestly functions in the Temple have not ended nor been invalidated; just put in their proper perspective.

verse 6: the Greek word "noo-ni" (translated "but now") has a broad range of ideas by which it can be interpretted. It has the idea of newness; but not necessarily of pre-existance, nor even of being fully established. It is best understood as a drawing of focus from one idea to another, much like a stage play will use lighting to draw your attention to a different character on a stage regardless of whether he has just entered or has been there all along. This is how we must interpret this sing as the New Covenant is not New. In Revelation 13:8 we come to understand that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Finally, since we've looked that the Jeremiah prophecy already, let's skip down to verse 13. Very interesting sentence structure: that which is currently entering the state of decay and is waxing (growing) old is ready to vanish away." The tense of this sentence is baffling to the Christian. Why did the writer not use past tense. If the Law were "fulfilled" amd the Old Covenant dismissed when Yeshua died on the cross, why did the writer not complete this sentence in past tense. This is forty years after the crucifixion, and yet, the writer is concluding that the passing of the Old Covenant is in present tense- that it still remains.

Some will argue that it is because the Temple had not yest been destroyed; but that wasn't a condition of the Covenant (Jeremiah 31:34-35). As long as the sun, moon and stars are there, the covenant remains. The consistent handling of the text must be that the Old Covenant is in place until there is a New heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21).

The point of what the writer of Hebrews is making is to establish our perspective. Do we worship the act of worship or do we worship God? Is it a process of ritual obedience or is it drawing toward a closer intimacy with Him? It is the same statement in Isaiah 1 and in Galatians. God is not a mechanical switch that if we press the right buttons we will get into His favor. He is our Father and woos us with His love.

[Mpossoff]

Thanks Mark!

Praise God for the very imformative "commentary".

Alot to take in to be honest.

As your "commentary" Praise God is "against" what I have been taught.

In fact the Pastor at work called me this morning and we were talking about the Sermon on the Mount scripture. He said to me that Jesus that scripture points to that the Law was abolished because Jesus says "But I say say unto you" which means it's new.

I didn't say anything to him at the time but I'm convicted that isn't so. The law wasn't abolished and a new one isn't in place. If it was so then why did Jesus quote something He was going to abolish?

It's the same law.

Marc

[Mark]

Hi Marc,

Very similar arguments to what your pastor friend has probably presented are discussed in the thread Matthew 5-7 in "teh four testimonies"

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=testimony&action=display&n=1&thread=126&page=2

I realize that it is a lot of information. It is likely that your friend will become persistent in pressing his position; yet it is very important that you develop your own clear understanding. It's okay to ask him to hold off a little while you try to sift through what you currently have. I think the struggle is very healthy for you if you take the time to work through it. Be patient with yourself and don't forget to meditate prayerfully upon the Word of God- not just struggle to find the correct academic response. The goal is not to reconcile your relationship with your friend or with us but to walk in intimate communion with Adonai through Yeshua Messiah.

[Mpossoff]

Thanks Mark for the encouragement!

You know Praise Jesus, the Spirit has revealed to me.... am I on track here?

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It's not the law that convicts me of unrighteousness, ungodliness it's the Spirit that convicts me of sin, transgression.

Same law but it's in my mind and heart versus the letter/tablets of stone.

Marc

[Chizuk Emunah]

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Here we see that Yirmeyahu is in fact quoting the Sh'ma {D'varim 6.4-9}.

... And you shall love the HaShem your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.

It's not the law that convicts me of unrighteousness, ungodliness it's the Spirit that convicts me of sin, transgression.

Pretty close. Once you learn what is sin and what is not through the , the Ruach Elohim (Spirit of HaShem) will convict you accordingly.

[Nachshon]

Natanel, I have to disagree. He is not quoting D'varim. In D'varim we are told that it will be in our hearts, and on our tongues. In Yirmeyahu we're told it will be in our hearts and our inmost parts (bowels, if you like). I think this is a very important difference. I think that Father is contrasting one: the service of our lips, with the other: the service of our entire beings. He desires mercy more than sacrifice. We see this principle reflected in Yeshua's "sermon on the mount." He takes the principles of and applies them to our inmost parts. Please understand, I am by no means saying that the physical ceases applying, or that Yeshua added to . I am merely saying that He taught us the principles, so we have no excuse, and that He reapplied them. Sometimes I have an idea very clear in my head, but can't seem to communicate it. I'm having that problem right now. :-D Anywho, just my random thoughts on this...
Mark, ironically, Ginomay doesn't mean "fulfill." Pleyroo in the previous verse does, indeed mean "fulfill" but Ginomay does not. It means "happen" or "ocurr" or "come to pass." I think that is interesting, that not one yodh or one tittel will pass from the until everything has come to pass. This is still somewhat open to interpretation, but if it is until absolutely everything has come to pass, Yeshua never said, "all is finished" but rather "it." A single thing. None of will pass until all hass come to pass.
The difference between Pleyroo and Ginomay is the same in the Aramaic version.

Shalom,
Nachshon