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Post by Mark on Dec 19, 2008 4:44:25 GMT -8
The Hebrew language culture is ripe and comfortable with the idea of hyperbole: so much so that the literal Greek thinking mind has often gone off the deep end of logical consideration. In the eleventh Century, self-mutilation became a popular form of worship among cultic monks and elements of the Catholic Church. Having the stamp of even fringe normalcy, the interpretations of Messiah’s words in Matthew 5, 18 and Mark 9:47 have become somewhat confused. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:29 KJV) In Judaism, our body represents the creative expression of God. To purposefully disfigure or damage oneself (or anyone else) is essentially vandalism, and utter disregard for the workmanship of our Creator. Even those whom we might find visually unappealing are considered among Adonai’s most precious and favored works of art. Self-mutilation was, however, common among the pagan cultures that surrounded the Jewish people. Their practices are specifically noted in the  : Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:27-28 KJV) Such practices were considered utterly detestable; and those who had participated in such paganism were absolutely rejected from the community. He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. (Deuteronomy 23:1 KJV) Messiah’s statement, then, is absolutely paradoxical. It would be better to damage oneself to prevent rejection from the kingdom; but damaging oneself results in rejection from the kingdom. If that’s what it takes, then you simply can’t get there from here. Yet, our inclination is quite often to take the hard and self-destructive course because it is easier than what is truly righteous and obedient. Like Saul and so many others who have pursued their own thing and hoped to be justified, we find that it is easier to sacrifice than to obey. The consequences are brutal… even self-destructive. It isn’t simply a zeal and passion to live close to God that brings us into relationship with Him. What could be more zealous or passionate than plucking out one’s own eye? The course that Messiah describes for us to follow is a pattern of humility and obedience, not trying to impress the Most High with our extremism, but being fully committed to Him in every way and in each area of our lives. The wrong-headedness of self-denial, abuse or abasement is demonstrated in many more areas than simply what can be inflicted on our personal bodies. The displays of personal piety through extremism is no less a factor in our religiosity today than it was among the ancient Hebrews or their surrounding cultures. Yet, if this is the method one sees in obtaining a greater inheritance in the Kingdom of God, Messiah’s message is poignant and clear: you can’t get there from here. Indeed, if we were to be left to our own devices to fully overcome our inclination to sin, we would be blind, deaf and dumb quadroplegics. This is the impact that Messiah intended for His audience on the mount, "except your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you can under no circumstances enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20). According to your own means, you simply can’t get there from here. There is a point where need to simply stop being religious: stop doing all the things and refusing all the circumstances that we have been taught lead to living a life pleasing to God. Simply stop and start listening. Walking with the Lord God is not a result of jumping through the right hoops, flipping the right switches and obeying specific commands. It is the result of becoming available to Him, listening to His Words and being pliable in His hands. Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:7-8 KJV) |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 8, 2015 17:56:42 GMT -8
I cant speak to anything from an Hebraic perspective, but here is another perspective I gained after contemplation on this verse that someone else may find helpful.
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than your whole body to be cast into hell."
Matthew 5:29-30
Sin originates in the heart, in that way your eyes and hands can't cause you to sin. We have complete ability and responsibility to control ourselves. That comes from the mind and starts in the heart. When our eyes or hands are being drawn to sin, it is a warning that we need to check our hearts and return our focus on G-d. If our hearts are not in the right place so to speak, we endanger our entire being. The struggle is not loosing our focus on G-d and therefore our strength for self-control.
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Matthew 5:21
I am just curious if anyone knows if there is any significance of Yeshua specifying right eye and right hand? I just thought there may be something more to that specification for some reason.
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Post by alon on Jul 8, 2015 18:50:50 GMT -8
The Hebrew language culture is ripe and comfortable with the idea of hyperbole: so much so that the literal Greek thinking mind has often gone off the deep end of logical consideration. In the eleventh Century, self-mutilation became a popular form of worship among cultic monks and elements of the Catholic Church. Having the stamp of even fringe normalcy, the interpretations of Messiah’s words in Matthew 5, 18 and Mark 9:47 have become somewhat confused. "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than your whole body to be cast into hell." Matthew 5:29-30 Sin originates in the heart, in that way your eyes and hands can't cause you to sin. We have complete ability and responsibility to control ourselves. That comes from the mind and starts in the heart. When our eyes or hands are being drawn to sin, it is a warning that we need to check our hearts and return our focus on G-d. If our hearts are not in the right place so to speak, we endanger our entire being. The struggle is not loosing our focus on G-d and therefore our strength for self-control. "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 5:21 I am just curious if anyone knows if there is any significance of Yeshua specifying right eye and right hand? I just thought there may be something more to that specification for some reason.
Your point about sin being a matter of the heart, not of external body members is spot on. That verse read in context:
Matthew 5:27-29 (CJB) “You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that a man who even looks at a woman with the purpose of lusting after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you sin, gouge it out and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into Gei-Hinnom.
So Yeshua is speaking of a heart condition. David Stern says "'The believer has "the mind of Messiah" (1 Cor 2:15) and is not to nurture any improper sexual feelings, desires, urges and lusts.'" He points out these desires will take over, causing you to fall into sin. The sin is in the mind whether the hand or eye works or not.
To pluck out one eye or cut off a hand is obviously, as Mark points out, hyperbole. A person could as easily look with the other eye or strike with the other hand, so mutilating ones self wouldn't accomplish anything. If what is said makes no sense, look for the deeper meaning and/or adjust your thinking and understanding. Mark is again correct that the Greek translations obfuscate the meaning which is evident in the original Hebrew. There was also a lot of attempting to insert paganism into God's Word. Self mutilation was a common sport of many of the early church fathers, self castration being the most common.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jul 8, 2015 21:41:33 GMT -8
I found another example:
Zechariah 7:8-12 (CJB) Then this message from Adonai came to Z’kharyah: “In the past Adonai-Tzva’ot said, ‘Administer true justice. Let everyone show mercy and compassion to his brother. Don’t oppress widows, orphans, foreigners or poor people. Don’t plot evil against each other.’ But they wouldn’t listen, they stubbornly turned their shoulder away and stopped up their ears, so that they wouldn’t have to hear it. Yes, they made their hearts as hard as a diamond, so that they wouldn’t hear the and the messages that Adonai-Tzva’ot had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. This is why great anger came from Adonai-Tzva’ot;
You don't need eyes or hands to sit and plot, or even just daydream about doing evil to someone else. Just a mind set on worldly values instead of Godly ones.
Matthew 6:15 (CJB) but if you do not forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will not forgive yours.
Unforgiveness, the sin of plotting against others, like lust will overwhelm us and turn our hearts away from Elohim. We fall away into an unsaved state and incur "great anger" from "Adonai-Tzva’ot." This is a difficult one for me; however by God's mercy and grace I am improving noticeably.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 9, 2015 8:10:05 GMT -8
Matt 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matt 18: 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mark 9: 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
The above words are not hyperbole nor do they obfuscate any meaning but are a restatement of the words below. We should not have pity on our own shortcomings. There is a price for offences.
Ex 21: 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Lev 24: 19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deut 19: 21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
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Post by alon on Jul 9, 2015 10:14:20 GMT -8
Matt 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matt 18: 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Mark 9: 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: The above words are not hyperbole nor do they obfuscate any meaning but are a restatement of the words below. We should not have pity on our own shortcomings. There is a price for offences.
Alternatively there could be some deeper, hidden meaning (Hebrew "sod"). But then the p'shat Greek interpretation would again be changed, and that just doesn't sit well with our Greek trained minds. So either lied, or God did change His mind when the Greeks took over- or this is an exaggeration to make a point; to wit, hyperbole. Or there is some other meaning you are not sharing with us.
We just read in last weeks par'shah "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind." (Numbers 23:19a ESV)Not the same thing at all. Not even close. These verses do not deal with self mutilation, but the penalties for mutilating others; "as he hath done, so shall it be done to him" is clearly someone else doing it, not "self."
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jul 9, 2015 12:43:46 GMT -8
... We should not have pity on our own shortcomings. There is a price for offences. ... |
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Post by jimmie on Jul 9, 2015 12:57:18 GMT -8
So you believe the Bible tells us we should practice self mutilation. I guess my next question would be "What parts have you cut off?" Not the same thing at all. Not even close. These verses do not deal with self mutilation, but the penalties for mutilating others; "as he hath done, so shall it be done to him" is clearly someone else doing it, not "self." Dan C [/font] [/quote] Can you show me a case of those OT penalties being carried out? Penalties are used as a deterrent to actions. The sins that disciples commit can lead less mature believers to sin also. This explains why the emphasis is on the external hand/foot/eye and not the heart. A disciple can not lead a weaker believer to sin by wickedness in the heart only; it has to be acted out so as to be seen. Thus the severity of the penalties for offending with the hand/eye/foot. |
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Post by jimmie on Jul 9, 2015 13:15:47 GMT -8
[quote author=" alon" source="/post/19162/thread" timestamp="1436465660 Alternatively there could be some deeper, hidden meaning (Hebrew "sod"). Dan C[/font] [/quote] I think you go into this in depth some where. But I can't find it. My knowledge of "PRaDeS" is limited so if I find that thread, I might post there instead of here. |
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Post by alon on Jul 9, 2015 13:32:04 GMT -8
Can you show me a case of those OT penalties being carried out? Penalties are used as a deterrent to actions.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 9, 2015 13:51:24 GMT -8
A wicked hearted teacher most certainly can lead people to sin without action as they will invariably lead people away from G-d and the truth. The verse is about self-control. If you have to resort to destroying part of yourself to control yourself; what do you do once you get to the inner struggle of heart and mind?
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Post by alon on Jul 9, 2015 14:45:17 GMT -8
Let’s look at this for a minute. You actually might make a case for this in either the d’rash or the remez. Your problem as I see it is the previous statements concerning self mutilation would be made allegorically, and we are back to hyperbole. It is, however, up to you to make the solid connection. Here’s some help:
That was an excellent d’rash, interpreting the passage allegorically and making the connection that what the heart internalizes and the mind conceives, the extremities do. And this can lead others into sin as well by the example of your actions.
So go for it. This is how we get the many lessons from the infinite Word of God. And we each bring a valuable perspective which allows us all to get more from the Word.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 10, 2015 8:28:20 GMT -8
This conversation has me curious about how much I don't know and what I am missing....
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Post by alon on Jul 12, 2015 4:01:21 GMT -8
Continuing in that line of thought, Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein said this concerning Pinchas' actions in this weeks par'shah:
So the repair, or conversely the destruction of the entire world starts with the perfecting of ourselves.
Matthew 15:18-20 (ESV) But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Matthew 12:34 (ESV) You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
It was this way from the start:
Genesis 4:2-5, 8b (ESV) And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. ... And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.
The problem originates in the heart and mind, then the action reveals who and what we are; as well as whose we are. And they effect everyone around us, causing sorrow, grief, resentment and anger. They may also be immolated by others seeking to elevate themselves rather than submit to God; or as in the case of the Rabbi in Rav Eckstein's story they may be imulated by those who like and respect the Godliness they see in us- and the repair of the world (Hebrew: תקון עולם tikkun olam) starts.
Dan C
edit: ok, twice I've tried to correct "immolated" (to burn up) to what I mean, imm"U"lated (to use as an example) ... aggravating auto-spell-correct-thing! But you get the drift ...
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 13, 2015 6:18:58 GMT -8
It's interesting the coincidences happening for me right now. Occassionally I come up with my own morning prayer routine of psalms and passages, when I have specific intentions in mind or a partucularly difficult struggle. I just prayerfully let G-d guide my choices and look for whatever it is he needs me to see. Anyway, repeatedly I am coming to verses to strengthen your heart and specifically in the context of waiting on the L-rd.
Anyway, I think I see what Jimmy was getting at. As I try to set a good example for my kids; it does make a huge difference when you have the self-control to contain the struggle to your heart. It seems so obvious but I had never considered this parable in the context of good-hearted but nevertheless weak humans struggeling to disciple precious little impressionable people. The key for me is that good-hearted people will strive to do better and not just try to hide it. Self-control is a process and knowing how to manage it while giving yourself time to grow in light of the strength of G-d definitely influences the people around you for good or bad. I just hadn't considered it on a more communal level.
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