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Post by verrid on Feb 15, 2005 12:03:57 GMT -8
The other day in church,I overheard someone say that you cant attain salvation through the Catholic Church.
This statement bothered me and I started to ponder it and I know that they believe in the incarnation of Christ,Right??
What would lead a Christian to think that Catholics arent saved???
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Post by Blake on Feb 15, 2005 17:43:40 GMT -8
Only God knows who is truly saved. One can be invidividually assured of Salvation, but to say someone else is or isn't regardless of how you see them is judgment and God does not tolerate men to sit that seat, for it belongs to Him alone.
The Catholic Church certainly has done evil things and perverted the faith of the Messiah, but to say a member of it cannot be saved is judgment.
No organization can save, but only through blood of the Messiah.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 15, 2005 18:07:49 GMT -8
There are nodoubt unsaved people in every denomination. Some denominations I believe are more problematic because they teach a false Gospel. Can one be saved from a false Gospel that teaches another Yeshua? Can one be saved without true “teshuvah” (repentance)? I believe this is more dependent on an individual basis and no one knows the end thereof of any one individual until they die. Christianity tends to think Catholics are not saved for many reasons. But, the main reasons are that many of them believe they are saved by their works, they have an ugly habit of worshipping idols, and engage in many other paganisms. In all reality, I believe if someone is truly saved and is maturing in Yeshua The Messiah, such a one will not stay in the Catholic Church for long.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 15, 2005 20:18:11 GMT -8
Hmm... methinks we should open a thread on this and discuss this further.
*I do agree with you here btw.*
Oh, and on topic, the majority of the Protestant denominations don't even believe that Catholics are even Christians, so how then could they be saved?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 15, 2005 22:06:20 GMT -8
Sounds good. If there isn't already a thread please feel free to start a new thread on the subject above.
Brachot b'Yeshua,
Reuel
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Curt
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Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Feb 23, 2005 11:03:49 GMT -8
As much as I dislike some of their church doctrines and their murdering of 50 million to 200 million Christians during the Middle Ages I do think Catholics that live up to all the truth God has given them will find themselves in the kingdom of God. The wide range in numbered murders is due to what the Catholic church admits to and the number Protestants claim.  |
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Post by Mark on Mar 26, 2005 4:52:03 GMT -8
Every person who considers their own eternal destiny has to establish a reason for why they ought to be allowed into the kingdom of YHWH. Catholic doctrine, in its simplest form, allows for grace through faith alone. "He that believes is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18).
At the same time, every religious order handicaps itself by the promotion of its own set of standards and values. The human assumption becomes this: "God's people" accept me and think that I am a good person therefore God must also accept me and think that I'm a good person. As long as we live within the bounds of the "Law" which is promoted and established by our own religious community, we feel safe.
This is a real and valid complaint against even the Messianic belief system- as long as you never eat pork and as long as you don't work on Saturday God will think you're okay. That's the assumption that the Church has made concerning our doctrine, that we justify ourselves by our works.
The Catholic order is replete with ceremonial acts of repentance and confession. These acts are not established for the purpose of justification (or the basis for having a relationship with God) but for worship and edification (for growing in that relationship). As long as these two things are not confused, the Catholic may obtain a right of inheritance.
This suggests that there may be a good many Catholics in glory; but there is another thing to consider. Yeshua said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdon..." There are many who claim the "Name of Jesus" but have not come to faith in Him. Believing is not an intellectual understanding the Yeshua is the Messiah and that He died on the cross for our sins. "The devils believe and tremble..." (James 2:19). Believing is giving over ourselves completely to Adonai because He has purchased us by the blood of His only begotten. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:26). Christianity has told God how that they are willing to obey Him rather than submitting themselves fully to His Word. I believe that the things that differentiate Catholics from Protestants are not so much the issues with which they need to be concerned so much as understanding what differentaites themselves from the Church of the first Century and those things which alienate themselves from God Himself.
We must be very careful. God doesn't like us more because we don't eat pork. We are no better than the worst sinners who roam the streets at night. We are saved by grace alone, not by our works so that no man can boast. The difference is that, by God's grace, we allow His grace to change our lives. That's the result of saving faith. I have found Catholics who possess it.
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Post by IronWill on Mar 28, 2005 12:20:06 GMT -8
Catholicism is a tricky one. I do beleive that there are Catholics who are saved. But, I believe that the Catholic church is riddled with error and corruption. Catholics believe that only through the Catholic church one can be saved. They have believed that for hundreds of years, although recently they have expanded their definition of 'catholic' to include Protestants as well. They also believe that one must attend mass, take the eucharist, and go to confession in order to make it to purgatory(and then heaven) and not hell.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 28, 2005 15:47:38 GMT -8
Shalom Ironwill & Mark,
So would you two say that if one puts their faith in a false belief that they would be saved (ie...not separated from HaShem for eternity)?
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Post by Mark on Mar 28, 2005 17:28:15 GMT -8
We have to be really careful (and sensitive) with titles. I consider myself a "messianic" but there are others who use this same term and do not believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. They are still waiting. If I place my confidence in being Messianic or by any criteria within that definition (if my faith is based upon my avoidance of the unclean or the remembrance of Sabbath) I am just as lost as any other. Saving faith is in the person of the Messiah, who He is and upon the hope of His coming just as He has promised. Catholic doctrine (as I understand it) does not contradict that hope but, according to the conversations I have shared with Catholic believers, supports it.
Since many of us came from Protestant backgrounds, we assume that that Protestant convictions are closer to the truth than the Catholic. I believe that this is a bit arrogant on our part. Protestant doctrine, with respect to the whole Bible, is just as heretical, just as anti-semitic as the Catholic.
It's interesting to look at "faith and practice" of Catholicism and see that it seems either Jewish or anti-Jewish. Protestamt "faith and practice" seems Catholic or anti-Catholic. This would make protestantism one step farther removed from the 1st Century Church than Catholicism, wouldn't it?
I think we just have to go back to the old adage, you can't judge a book by its cover. I believe that there are those resting in the hope of Messiah, though in the Catholic faith, just as I believe there are true believers in the Protestant denominations.
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Post by Rick on Mar 28, 2005 19:28:43 GMT -8
1 Timothy 2:5,6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. This page gives an extensive scriptural critique of the catholic church. (the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the post'er  ). www.amazingbible.com/Documents/Bible_Prophecy/Catholic_church_by_scripture.htm |
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Post by IronWill on Mar 29, 2005 16:48:09 GMT -8
Shalom Ironwill & Mark, So would you two say that if one puts their faith in a false belief that they would be saved (ie...not separated from HaShem for eternity)? Wouldn't say that at all. But there are Catholics who believe have put their faith in Jesus Christ, and not in the Catholic church to save them. They just continue in the Catholic church because they grew up there. Salvation apart from belief and faith in Christ is not possible. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 31, 2005 13:06:11 GMT -8
Okay, fair enough. Now let me reveal the reason I asked such a question.... Catholics and Protestants alike place their faith in a Torahless god and Messiah. Therefore, by definition, they have not placed their faith in the one true Eloah, but in something else. This other faith calls itself the one true faith, claims to follow the one true god, but in all actuality, it is in direct opposition to the truth given to us by HaShem himself. I hold Catholicism responsible for this, as they were the ones who propagated this false truth and even combined it with elements of paganism. Okay, since we're starting to veer off-topic (my fault ) , we can continue to discuss it: hereEdit: For clarification purposes, I am not condemning the people involved, only the teaching itself. |
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Curt
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Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Apr 5, 2005 14:30:19 GMT -8
No, If someone puts their faith in a false belief system they will not be saved. If they live up to or obey all the truth given them I believe they will be saved. If they reject any truth I believe they will not be saved. Truth is revealed in the Bible and His Creation not necessarily by any denomination.
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Post by Rick on Apr 5, 2005 15:06:57 GMT -8
99% agreement with this statement Joh 14:6 Yeshua said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. Luk 1:79 He will give light to those who live in the dark and in death's shadow. He will guide us into the way of peace." Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." Joh 8:12 Again, therefore, Yeshua spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life." Joh 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness. Act 26:18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Hasatan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' I think if someone has truly put their faith in Yeshua and trust in him and G-d's word, and sincerely asked forgiveness and turned from their sin, The will be saved. "Knock and it will be opened" "Ask and you shall recieve". Regardless of the "Denomination" I believe all will be judged according to the light they have. 1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each man will get his praise from God. 
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