|
Post by alon on May 30, 2019 10:43:55 GMT -8
I apologize if the tone was too harsh, or if you thought I was accusing either of you of extreme pacifism. However you both in your own way have argued for the extreme stance, so yes I do see your arguments heading that direction. My intent was to encourage all of us not to go that direction.
Hillel and Shammai, while hotly debating almost every aspect of their faith were still the best of friends, and two of the greatest rabonim who ever lived. These men both took an extreme view of the Messiah: one the pacifist Messiah whose fight here on earth was so selfless and courageous. He gave us the perfect example of the type of resistance you talk about. The other saw the conquering Messiah whose return we now know will be absolutely ruthless. We see both typified in the Bible many times. And both men were in their own way correct. Both men, smart as they were, were equally wrong in their extremist stance.
That is my point. To everything there is a season. Dress ourselves for the season, not for how we wish the weather to be.
Dan C
(And yes, I know I took some liberties in the wordplay on the term "season")
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 30, 2019 10:58:33 GMT -8
Also, we don't have enough information about Barabbas to call him a hero, but the Bible uses the words insurrection, murderer and bandit in describing him. I know there's issues with translations and the words chosen, but I don't really hear him being characterized as you are describing so I'm just not comfortable making the same conclusions. In the least, he walked away and let an innocent man die without protesting so I'm wary. We are not told what became of Barabbas. But we do know that before he was a freedom fighter, and possibly a leader of some sort in the rebellion. We also know he didn't rat out his fellow freedom fighters to save himself, since Pilate wanted to free Yeshua instead of him. We also can deduce that both men now being on the Roman radar so to speak would not have lived long after this. The only reason Pilate didn't want to kill Yeshua then was he feared a huge uprising since all Jewish men wee gathered in Jerusalem. Killing their crown prince and a popular rabbi at that time was dangerous. We know the charges against him were laid by the Romans. It wasn't God characterizing him as a murderer and seditionist, it was Rome! And who later told us it was God but the church in Rome! The same people who told us the Law died with Yeshua. All this makes Barabbas a hero of the Jewish people. He had no hand in killing Yeshua. He never said take Him and let me go. And he had no say at all in the matter. The sentiment that he did is from the same church which gave us the sentiment the Jews killed Jesus. I have no idea what the state of his soul was at the time. No idea if he ever embraced Yeshua as Messiah. But based on what I do know reading the same accounts as you is this man was a hero in every sense of the word. Dan C
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 30, 2019 11:14:42 GMT -8
Luke tells us that Barabbas was in prison for Sedition – meaning he was a leader of the insurrection. You've not shown there is anything wrong in that. I believe Luke provides no answer to that question at all: Matthew 27:38 (ESV) Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left.
Neither of those men were accused of sedition. They were common thieves. So to read some kind of charge against Barabbas character into Lukes account is absolutely and unmistakably wrong. So is the charge I "sainted" Barabbas. Sainthood implies a spiritual condition I have repeatedly said we do not know. I said he was a hero, and I stand by that. I never said he was a saint. But to answer your question, neither of those men were heroes. One became a saint. Dan C
|
|
|
Post by jimmie on May 30, 2019 13:43:38 GMT -8
I apologize if the tone was too harsh, or if you thought I was accusing either of you of extreme pacifism. However you both in your own way have argued for the extreme stance, so yes I do see your arguments heading that direction. My intent was to encourage all of us not to go that direction. Dan C I am no pacifist. I do know however that there are times when war should not be conducted. I have already mentioned Zedekiah’s war was wrong. There is also the first battle of Ai, Saul’s defeat, Joab’s slaying of Abner, Rehoboam’s war with Shishak, Jehoshaphat’s war at Ramothgilead, Josiah’s (yes the one who was to go to his grave in peace) war with Pharaohnechoh and others. God’s people must earn the right to make war. Witness: Leviticus 26:14But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; 15And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: 16I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. 18And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: 20And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. Leviticus 26:33And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. 34Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. 35As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 36And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. Deuteronomy 28:22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 25The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. 27The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 28The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: By the way, I may be old, but in the event of a justifiable war, I would fight like Caleb.
|
|
|
Post by alon on May 30, 2019 15:36:34 GMT -8
I apologize if the tone was too harsh, or if you thought I was accusing either of you of extreme pacifism. However you both in your own way have argued for the extreme stance, so yes I do see your arguments heading that direction. My intent was to encourage all of us not to go that direction. Dan C I am no pacifist. I do know however that there are times when war should not be conducted. I have already mentioned Zedekiah’s war was wrong. There is also the first battle of Ai, Saul’s defeat, Joab’s slaying of Abner, Rehoboam’s war with Shishak, Jehoshaphat’s war at Ramothgilead, Josiah’s (yes the one who was to go to his grave in peace) war with Pharaohnechoh and others. Perhaps not- I’ll take your word for it. However your excoriation of Barabbas who did go to war for his people and the fact all your arguments concerning war were against it does give that impression. Not one mention of any of the wars the Judges fought, nor the total war in the conquest of the Land. In all that not one mention or example of earning the right to go to war. It does say they will be punished for disobedience with wars they cannot win. For all that which says nothing in the context of our discussion, I will give you the example of Chadassah and the Jewish people who exemplified everyone’s right to self defense, even if it means war, when they went against Haman’s minions. Good to know. I never assume I will have the courage to face what is coming. We do not know what pressures they will bring to bear on us. I do pray I will have both courage and discernment to deal with it. And barring a miracle I won’t be marching far, nor will I even see them coming that far off. But I’ll quote a friend who has since departed, and my hope is I will “have one good fight left in me, and they can have it!” Dan C
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jun 7, 2019 6:19:49 GMT -8
I've just been thinking about what is going on here because I really don't believe I am leaning toward a passive approach in this. So I just thought it through more, what's going on in my own faith.
I think we can have some idea of what Barrabas would have been called to do had he or if he went on to follow Yeshua. Just like Paul, Steven, and all believers, he would have been called on to do what I'm trying to communicate.
Paul was fighting what he thought was evil one way before he came to Yeshua, and another way after. Neither was passive, and the latter was his calling. I am saying that we need to be preparing and planning for the latter.
Of course when we can stand up to defend someone, we need to. I'm speaking in terms of our larger culture and world. We need to be ready for the truth that before Yeshua returns the larger culture will look like the "winner". The more we glorify G-d, the more we'll be killed. That's our history looking at it since Yeshua's life on earth. The more faithful we are, the more they'll kill us.
I've heard hasatsn actually believed he defeated Yeshua on the cross. I don't know as I don't remember a scripture saying that, but I think this is the kind of victory we need to be fighting for. Hasatan will be allowed to do everything he can to destroy us, but G-d keeps us. I know G-d won't give us more than we can handle through Him, but how much can G-d handle? Look at Yeshua. G-d is humbling hasatsn through us. That's what we're up against. I think our life and testimony is more between G-d and hasatsn than we often realize, and that means we really need to understand our place.
As a side note, in all this thinking, I realized how grateful we need to be for the Angels who do G-d's will. Can you imagine, how easily they could just do whatever he asks instead of just helping us? Yet, they have the love and honor of G-d to hold back. That's amazing and inspiring. Meanwhile, hasatan will not be holding back. This is ultimately about G-d and Who He is so that when the adversary is put down, he's put down entirely as G-d sees it. G-d is using our weakness to reveal His authority and strength, so what our faith survives will be our testimony, not what we physically overcome.
It's very clear in my heart and mind that our resurrection is proof to the adversary, and all who belong to him, of Yeshua's strength and power. That's our calling; that we are ultimately risen in His power and glory. We are proof of His victory and power, but He's in this for completion and perfection. That means we need to recognize that's it's not until Yeshua returns that we will look victorious to the world, but it will be a victory all about Who Yeshua is and what He's done. That's why I feel confident in my understanding.
I believe we really need to be ready to have the strength of faith to look like losers. That's my point. Here's the beautiful truth that I love, it is Yeshua whose victory is our resurrection strength. I'm just glad I see more clearly the way we will really glorify Him. He is the one Who is and will overcome. All we are is proof of His perfection, strength, and untouchable power. Can you imagine, all life literally hinges on Him, and we get to show it! I love how G-d does things, but Im not especially thrilled about the truth of where we're at right now in his plan. We need to prepare for evil overcoming us as stated in scripture.(Revelation 11:7)
I think its one thing to be passive and it's another thing to be faithful in the way I'm describing (and I think Jimmie as well) . I feel like maybe we were discussing separate things; defending people and remaining faithful. I do believe, we need to understand our place in G-d's will and plan. We are not the victors. It's Yeshua. In the world's eyes it will look like we're dead and done with. I believe we'll glorify G-d enough to help save the remnant through His Spirit, but it won't be victory by the world's definition. Whatever good is left in the world will repent because of our faith that's illustrated, G-d help us, in how we die. Yet, imagine the faith and brightness of those who in spite of knowing and witnessing how they'll die, come to Him anyway. How much glory they give to G-d! This is the communal victory in this life that I see scripture foretell for us.
It's when we rise from the dead in His strength, perfection, power, and authority that we finally show evil it's futility because He will show its always been destroyed in Him. We know the victory through Yeshua's Spirit, but hasatan cannot understand that. He doesn't have the wisdom we do through Yeshua's Spirit, and he cannot comprehend a self-sacrificing heart who loves G-d and wants to submit to and glorify Him. That's our strength and testimony, and hasatsn cannot understand or believe it so G-d will show him. There are those who truly love, and love Him.
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 7, 2019 8:59:30 GMT -8
I've just been thinking about what is going on here because I really don't believe I am leaning toward a passive approach in this. So I just thought it through more, what's going on in my own faith. I think we can have some idea of what Barrabas would have been called to do had he or if he went on to follow Yeshua. Just like Paul, Steven, and all believers, he would have been called on to do what I'm trying to communicate. Paul was fighting what he thought was evil one way before he came to Yeshua, and another way after. Neither was passive, and the latter was his calling. I am saying that we need to be preparing and planning for the latter. Of course when we can stand up to defend someone, we need to. I'm speaking in terms of our larger culture and world. We need to be ready for the truth that before Yeshua returns the larger culture will look like the "winner". The more we glorify G-d, the more we'll be killed. That's our history looking at it since Yeshua's life on earth. The more faithful we are, the more they'll kill us. I've heard hasatsn actually believed he defeated Yeshua on the cross. I don't know as I don't remember a scripture saying that, but I think this is the kind of victory we need to be fighting for. Hasatan will be allowed to do everything he can to destroy us, but G-d keeps us. I know G-d won't give us more than we can handle through Him, but how much can G-d handle? Look at Yeshua. G-d is humbling hasatsn through us. That's what we're up against. I think our life and testimony is more between G-d and hasatsn than we often realize, and that means we really need to understand our place. As a side note, in all this thinking, I realized how grateful we need to be for the Angels who do G-d's will. Can you imagine, how easily they could just do whatever he asks instead of just helping us? Yet, they have the love and honor of G-d to hold back. That's amazing and inspiring. Meanwhile, hasatan will not be holding back. This is ultimately about G-d and Who He is so that when the adversary is put down, he's put down entirely as G-d sees it. G-d is using our weakness to reveal His authority and strength, so what our faith survives will be our testimony, not what we physically overcome. It's very clear in my heart and mind that our resurrection is proof to the adversary, and all who belong to him, of Yeshua's strength and power. That's our calling; that we are ultimately risen in His power and glory. We are proof of His victory and power, but He's in this for completion and perfection. That means we need to recognize that's it's not until Yeshua returns that we will look victorious to the world, but it will be a victory all about Who Yeshua is and what He's done. That's why I feel confident in my understanding. I believe we really need to be ready to have the strength of faith to look like losers. That's my point. Here's the beautiful truth that I love, it is Yeshua whose victory is our resurrection strength. I'm just glad I see more clearly the way we will really glorify Him. He is the one Who is and will overcome. All we are is proof of His perfection, strength, and untouchable power. Can you imagine, all life literally hinges on Him, and we get to show it! I love how G-d does things, but Im not especially thrilled about the truth of where we're at right now in his plan. We need to prepare for evil overcoming us as stated in scripture.(Revelation 11:7) I think its one thing to be passive and it's another thing to be faithful in the way I'm describing (and I think Jimmie as well) . I feel like maybe we were discussing separate things; defending people and remaining faithful. I do believe, we need to understand our place in G-d's will and plan. We are not the victors. It's Yeshua. In the world's eyes it will look like we're dead and done with. I believe we'll glorify G-d enough to help save the remnant through His Spirit, but it won't be victory by the world's definition. Whatever good is left in the world will repent because of our faith that's illustrated, G-d help us, in how we die. Yet, imagine the faith and brightness of those who in spite of knowing and witnessing how they'll die, come to Him anyway. How much glory they give to G-d! This is the communal victory in this life that I see scripture foretell for us. It's when we rise from the dead in His strength, perfection, power, and authority that we finally show evil it's futility because He will show its always been destroyed in Him. We know the victory through Yeshua's Spirit, but hasatan cannot understand that. He doesn't have the wisdom we do through Yeshua's Spirit, and he cannot comprehend a self-sacrificing heart who loves G-d and wants to submit to and glorify Him. That's our strength and testimony, and hasatsn cannot understand or believe it so G-d will show him. There are those who truly love, and love Him. Excellent post! Very well thought out, and I can (and do) agree with that. In fact, as I've said here before, I often pray for strength to face whatever I may be called on in the end. And as Barabbas illustrates, even freedom fighters or those who just stand up to a tyrannical government are often caught. As in Yeshua's case they may be called on to die a gruesome death. Or they suffer imprisonment as Rav Shaul did. Whatever the case, our prospects are grim if we go against ha'satan and his minions. The best case scenario is we are shamed as losers, like you say, and hidden away somewhere. Most are called to passive resistance, and even the ones called to active resistance must most times be passive. But active resistance doesn't have to be fighting. Right now that would be counterproductive anyhow. Just standing up for our values, teaching the word and speaking out when someone talks trash about our brethren or our values. These are types of active resistance, and even the most passive are called to these things as well. More and more we are being intimidated into silence. I am pretty vocal about my faith and my conservative values, but there have been a few times when I was intimidated and did not speak up. So none of us are immune. And at times I try (with varrying degrees of success) to moderate my tone so as not to give offense. So arguing extremes is pointless, as both callings overlap. I'm old and stove up enough I don't get around much. So I try never to miss an opportunity to share. Sadly most of my life when I was able to get around I wasn't looking for those opportunities. I was very vocal when someone wanted to accuse Christians or conservatives (I had no idea of Messianism then), or deny the harms liberalism was doing. But I didn't go out of my way to find these people. In fact, since they tend to travel in groups I spent most of my time avoiding them! My wife says I am antisocial, I just tell her I am anti-socialist, anti-socialites, and anti-social gatherings. I don't like crowds, especially crowds of idiots. Small groups are more my thing, and the idiots tend to get scarce in any small group I'd be in. So I'm probably not the best missionary you'll ever meet; not my gift. I study, I ask questions like in the OP, and when I am sure then I tell it like I see it. But I try never to be so stuck on an idea I cannot change when shown better, nor so open to change as to believe anyone or anything. I'm not 100% settled on Azazel as representing Barabbas, but I am leaning that way. Which means I'm not telling anyone anything but that it's a possibility. And since the thread went sideways (as often happens), it is still up for discussion here. Dan (open-minded- and stop laughing! ) C
|
|