Why am I pursuing Torah

[Elizabeth]

All in vain I have kept my heart clean and washed my hands in innocence.  For all the day long I have been stricken and rebuked every morning.
Psalm 73:13-14

As I was reading this Psalm, I thought how it kind of ties into the saved by grace or works debate and why I pursue Torah. The question for me about why I pursue Torah  is not, how am I saved. I know I am saved, and I am saved by Yeshua.

So then really, for me, the question is why do I seek G-d's will and ultimately to do what G-d says. It's that simple for me. It's not even really about Torah. It's about why do I want to do what G-d says. 

Yeshua gives me a Spirit repulsed by sin, so if I seek to keep my heart clean and pure for no other reason than to have a clean and pure heart, I am rewarded. Otherwise, how could I stand myself? No I am not perfect, but I have hope. I have hope not only in forgiveness but in dying to sin and self.

That's why I want to do what G-d says. I dont want sin in my life, yet it's just here. It's here, what do you do with it? He gives me His Spirit to overcome it but as far as practical living, I was personally drawn back to Torah. It just gives me a practical everyday means to focus my mind on Him and have a goal in mind. I think that must be good given Yeshua is coming back to earth specifically to establish Torah rule on the earth. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Yeshua's Spirit lead me to repentance, which for me was tied into a love for His people and then the Sabbath, followed quickly by Torah. Now, I am trying to figure out how it all ties in and what to do with it.

Now I am learning how to discern more in His Spirit my own limitations and ability to do. For context of what I am saying, think about the healings Yeshua did on the Sabbath and the criticism He took on as supposedly breaking the Sabbath because of it.

So check between the grace of G-d that leads us to love and loving acts against self-sufficiency and self-righteous doing. If I cannot rejoice in the physical healing of another let alone the spiritual reconciliation it affords, what good is my Torah pursuance? Why do we seek to learn and apply Torah?Because it's shows us the mind and will of G-d that reconciles us to His way. It shows us what He blesses and rejoices in. Ultimately that is redemption from the consequences of sin which is suffering and death. 

I have kind of come to a very general rule for myself to observe G-d's will and pursue Torah in  a world and place I can't. I seek to bless what G-d blesses and rejoice in what He rejoices in. G-d loves redemption. He loves being with us and so ironically Torah has become kind of my check regarding my motivations for what I do. We are so weak. Everything G-d gives us can be corrupted so He  gives us His incorruptable Spirit to hold us accountable not only for what we do, but why we do it. 

We can criticise Judaism for holding the traditions of man as a higher regard than G-d's rules, but we are the ones who represent Yeshua in this world. I worry for believers who dismis Torah because the bottom line is it is you who hold man's instructions at a higher regard than G-d's while representing Yeshua. Meanwhile you are misusing the words of scripture in His name to justify it.

G-d blesses a day that you don't. He blesses a nation that perhaps you don't. He gave holidays and you replace them with your own. He gave a set of rules through which the world was and further will be blessed that you dismiss while seeking man's commentary and doctrine instead of trying to more fully understand His will through His own instructions. You often use the love of G-d to understand the world outside of the context in which that love was expressed, and so you ultimately end up blessing or at least excusing  what G-d curses or calls an abomination. You consistently and likely unintentionally replace the very thing G-d has put into place or designated with almost the exact opposite of what He calls for.  I don't think it's intentional because I did the same thing, but if you consider it, that's exactly what satan does so what happened?


I really think this may be because you don't regard G-d's Torah  as relevant or worthy and don't have adequate context to understand the words and commandments of Yeshua. If your Christianity leads you to promote what G-d calls abominable or tolerate an idea of peace that is in direct opposition to the will of G-d, your religion is at odds with the G-d you profess and you don't know Him or His will as well as you think. That's where I check my own self with, am I blessing what G-d blesses and rejoicing in what He rejoices in.  The Torah helps me understand this better.

[alon]

Dec 30, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

We can criticise Judaism for holding the traditions of man as a higher regard than G-d's rules, but we are the ones who represent Yeshua in this world. I worry for believers who dismis  because the bottom line is it is you who hold man's instructions at a higher regard than G-d's while representing Yeshua. Meanwhile you are misusing the words of scripture in His name to justify it.

G-d blesses a day that you don't. He blesses a nation that perhaps you don't. He gave holidays and you replace them with your own. He gave a set of rules through which the world was and further will be blessed that you dismiss while seeking man's commentary and doctrine instead of trying to more fully understand His will through His own instructions. You often use the love of G-d to understand the world outside of the context in which that love was expressed, and so you ultimately end up blessing or at least excusing  what G-d curses or calls an abomination. You consistently and likely unintentionally replace the very thing G-d has put into place or designated with almost the exact opposite of what He calls for.  I don't think it's intentional because I did the same thing, but if you consider it, that's exactly what satan does so what happened?

I really think this may be because you don't regard G-d's   as relevant or worthy and don't have adequate context to understand the words and commandments of Yeshua. If your Christianity leads you to promote what G-d calls abominable or tolerate an idea of peace that is in direct opposition to the will of G-d, your religion is at odds with the G-d you profess and you don't know Him or His will as well as you think. That's where I check my own self with, am I blessing what G-d blesses and rejoicing in what He rejoices in.  The  helps me understand this better.

You just pretty much summed up in four paragraphs the arguments I've been having with some Eastern Orthodox folks in about as many months! Yeshua of course summed up the whole thing in one sentence:

John 14:15 (ESV) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

He was good at doing that ... 

But you know me; never say in one sentence or even four paragraphs what you can argue about for several months! 

Well said! Appreciate hearing your thoughts on keeping .

Dan C

[garrett]

Dec 30, 2017 14:37:02 GMT -8 alon said:

Dec 30, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

We can criticise Judaism for holding the traditions of man as a higher regard than G-d's rules, but we are the ones who represent Yeshua in this world. I worry for believers who dismis  because the bottom line is it is you who hold man's instructions at a higher regard than G-d's while representing Yeshua. Meanwhile you are misusing the words of scripture in His name to justify it.

G-d blesses a day that you don't. He blesses a nation that perhaps you don't. He gave holidays and you replace them with your own. He gave a set of rules through which the world was and further will be blessed that you dismiss while seeking man's commentary and doctrine instead of trying to more fully understand His will through His own instructions. You often use the love of G-d to understand the world outside of the context in which that love was expressed, and so you ultimately end up blessing or at least excusing  what G-d curses or calls an abomination. You consistently and likely unintentionally replace the very thing G-d has put into place or designated with almost the exact opposite of what He calls for.  I don't think it's intentional because I did the same thing, but if you consider it, that's exactly what satan does so what happened?

I really think this may be because you don't regard G-d's   as relevant or worthy and don't have adequate context to understand the words and commandments of Yeshua. If your Christianity leads you to promote what G-d calls abominable or tolerate an idea of peace that is in direct opposition to the will of G-d, your religion is at odds with the G-d you profess and you don't know Him or His will as well as you think. That's where I check my own self with, am I blessing what G-d blesses and rejoicing in what He rejoices in.  The  helps me understand this better.

You just pretty much summed up in four paragraphs the arguments I've been having with some Eastern Orthodox folks in about as many months! Yeshua of course summed up the whole thing in one sentence:

John 14:15 (ESV) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

He was good at doing that ... 

But you know me; never say in one sentence or even four paragraphs what you can argue about for several months! 

Well said! Appreciate hearing your thoughts on keeping .

Dan C

Elizabeth,

I agree with Dan one this one. You summed this up ridiculously well.

I am still perplexed with people and family that don't regard G-d's as relevant, especially since the answer is so clear. It's ironic that I was thinking about this as I was driving around in my car this morning and the same verse (as an answer) popped into my head:

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

The ongoing, rhetorical statements still haunt me from others on all sides. The typical theme is that of grace and the Spirit now leading people away from "sin." But what in the world do they use as a standard-bearer for sin if the is irrelevant? How does one know if he or she has sinned unless there is a specific set of rules to dictate what is right and what is wrong? Do people not realize that the disciples still adhered to these principles of the long after the ascension of Yeshua to be seated at the right hand of G-d? Also, I often hear and read about the word "sin" being replaced with "poor choices" or "...when we fall short." This is soft believism.

Many go so far as to say that since Yeshua died for our sins past, present and future that we don't actually have to ask for forgiveness for when sin is committed!! Meanwhile, scripture tells us to confess our sins. Why? because we have obviously violated G-d's law! Consider children, who thrive under the establishment of boundaries, rules and discipline. They are happier in the long run because they are given order. Their minds are more at peace and they are given a better chance to be exceptional.

Believers (if they really are that) bask in the glory of being holy, sanctified and loved. Yet they alter the parameters for what is good and what is evil, since "evil is no longer a part of their nature."  A lot of grey areas begin to appear.

I might be ranting at this point...but I wanted to throw in my two cents and (hopefully) qualify what you were writing about.

Hoping everyone is well - garrett

[Questor]

Dec 30, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

So then really, for me, the question is why do I seek G-d's will and ultimately to do what G-d says. It's that simple for me. It's not even really about . It's about why do I want to do what G-d says. 

Elizabeth, you are loving G-d and worshipping him by showing that love day by day, step by step, with your eyes on the G-d given instructions, and the intention in your heart to please him by valuing what he values.

You may not do it perfectly all the time, for we don't, being human, and faulty, but I think you must be one of the pictures on Abba's hands that he looks at from time to time with a special smile.

[Elizabeth]

I ran into another clarifying idea for the why pursuing Torah isn't about works verses grace perspective this morning as I was studying.  

Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed Me, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me."
Matthew 25:34-36

Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
1Peter 4:8

My ESV says that the verse in 1 Peter is about our love covering a multitude of other people's sins. I have always read the verse to mean that love covers my sins. Then as I was thinking about this I thought how easy it would be for people to start criticizing me for seeking salvation through deeds just using these two New Testament verses. 

Meanwhile, we are commanded by Yeshua Himself throughout His teachings including in Matthew 25 to do good works, and I am not convinced my ESV is correct about its interpretation on 1Peter 4:8.

Anyway, here is another general guideline as I pursue Torah, Do what G-d says, to let go of my own sin and move on from it.

I bring a lot of sin, loss, and pain with me that plagues me mentally and emotionally and satan capitalizes on it.

What can you do once you repent of it? How do you let go in truth and not just in words and understanding? Often, we don't. We know G-d leaves it behind but we get swallowed up in the selfishness of guilt, self-pitty, and hopelessness or the "if only" imaginations.

Pursuing Torah gives me a way to move on once I repent of sin. It also helps me focus on G-d instead of myself. So the love I show does help me cover my sin in a very practical and earthly way as it deepens my relationship with G-d and others and helps me take the focus off myself. The Torah helps me focus on just knowing G-f more and pursuing His instructions helps me focus on the grace He has given me to do so.

[rakovsky]

Dec 30, 2017 14:37:02 GMT -8 alon said:

Dec 30, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

We can criticise Judaism for holding the traditions of man as a higher regard than G-d's rules, but we are the ones who represent Yeshua in this world. I worry for believers who dismis  because the bottom line is it is you who hold man's instructions at a higher regard than G-d's while representing Yeshua. Meanwhile you are misusing the words of scripture in His name to justify it.

You just pretty much summed up in four paragraphs the arguments I've been having with some Eastern Orthodox folks in about as many months! Yeshua of course summed up the whole thing in one sentence:

John 14:15 (ESV) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Shalom!

I understand that this is a Messianic forum, and I am glad to be on it. I am Eastern Orthodox myself.

I notice that the thread above paraphrased a verse from scripture. Typically, what Eastern Orthodox do is take a verse and then look to see what early Christian writers said about it and how they understood the verse. One Jewish friend told me that he was put off by Eastern Orthodoxy because of how much it reminded him of Orthodox Judaism, like how Orthodox Judaism tried to follow the old rabbinical teachings as a major authority.

I am not sure which Bible translation you prefer. The World Messianic Bible has the following for Matthew 15, which includes the verse quote:

1. Then Pharisees and scribes came to Yeshua from Jerusalem, saying, 2. “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3. He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of G-d because of your tradition? 4. For G-d commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’(Ex. 20; Deut. 5) and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’(Ex. 21; Lev. 20) 5. But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to G-d,” 6. he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of G-d void because of your tradition. 7. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8. ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth,
and honor me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me.
9. And in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’ ”(Isaiah 29:13)
10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
12 Then the disciples came, and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But he answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father didn’t plant will be uprooted. 14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
15 Peter answered him, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 So Yeshua said, “Do you also still not understand? 17 Don’t you understand that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the belly and then out of the body? 18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands doesn’t defile the man.”

Source: World Messianic Bible

In this passage, the pharisees complained that Yeshua's disciples were not performing ritual handwashing. As I understand it, they were referring to the teaching from the Oral of the rabbis, wherein adherents must wash their hands with a prayer before eating. Without knowing more about Christianity's teachings, if the conversation were about the usual 1st century Jewish rabbi and his followers, how would you interpret the rabbi's and his students' lack of handwashing? Would you take the view that this was a very liberal or Reform-school rabbi?

The New Testament gives different answers to the pharisees' repeated challenges about observing the ritual rules of the written and Oral . In this case, Yeshua replied that when it came to the , the pharisees were hypocrites and made the Lord's command void. He said that the Lord commanded the Israelites to honor their parents, but the pharisees taught that when the parents requested something that their child dedicated all the things that could help his/her parents to the Lord, the child need not follow the command to honor the parents. The things dedicated to the Lord by the child would be called "Korban".

My take on this is that Yeshua saw some commands, like honoring one's parents, as the "Lord's commands", whereas others, like being able to dedicate all one's gifts as "Korban" and not help one's parents, as the "teachings of men". This categorization seems to imply that the rabbis' teaching about handwashing from the "tradition of the elders" is also a "teaching of men".

[alon]

Jan 20, 2019 17:53:39 GMT -8 rakovsky said:

In this passage, the pharisees complained that Yeshua's disciples were not performing ritual handwashing. As I understand it, they were referring to the teaching from the Oral of the rabbis, wherein adherents must wash their hands with a prayer before eating. Without knowing more about Christianity's teachings, if the conversation were about the usual 1st century Jewish rabbi and his followers, how would you interpret the rabbi's and his students' lack of handwashing? Would you take the view that this was a very liberal or Reform-school rabbi?

The New Testament gives different answers to the pharisees' repeated challenges about observing the ritual rules of the written and Oral . In this case, Yeshua replied that when it came to the , the pharisees were hypocrites and made the Lord's command void. He said that the Lord commanded the Israelites to honor their parents, but the pharisees taught that when the parents requested something that their child dedicated all the things that could help his/her parents to the Lord, the child need not follow the command to honor the parents. The things dedicated to the Lord by the child would be called "Korban".

My take on this is that Yeshua saw some commands, like honoring one's parents, as the "Lord's commands", whereas others, like being able to dedicate all one's gifts as "Korban" and not help one's parents, as the "teachings of men". This categorization seems to imply that the rabbis' teaching about handwashing from the "tradition of the elders" is also a "teaching of men".

Actually, it is part of Pharisaic halacha, instructions and rulings of the Rabbis on how individuals walk out the minutia of keeping . nd yes, they are found in the Mishna. Halachic rulings were supposed to never change or undermine , which is immutable. But by the 1st cen CE these rulings had gotten to the point no one could actually keep them all, and all to often they did go against or its principles. Yeshua more often that not agreed with the Pharisees, however being Jewish He was not bashful about taking them to task when they were wrong.

In Mark 7 is where we read about the debate between Judean Pharisees and Jesus over the fact that His disciples did not do n'tilat yadayim, ritual handwashing before they ate. In fact they may have, but the arguments were so ridiculous that if you didn't do it like their school ten it was as though you didn't do it at all! What we today need to understand is this had nothing to do with hygiene. It was about the laws of ṭumah טומאה and ṭaharah טהרה, the state of being ritually "impure" or "pure." It was like doing tevilah (a ritual bath/baptism) for the hands. The idea was if you inadvertently touched something tumah then touched your food it would then become "unclean" and so would you when you ate it. Yeshua was actually telling them in what was really a short summary of Leviticus 15 that said no such thing! In fact, everything that makes a person unclean is what comes out of him or her: a discharge for men, menstruation for women, pus from a sore, etc.

Mark 7:15 (ESV) There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”

And being scripture, and the words of Yeshua no less, this works on several levels of meaning at once. What comes out from our heart can be the most unclean of all. He addressed the same topic when He said:

Matthew 23:26-28  (ESV) You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 

So if you want to be ritualy pure in your walk with God, then yes, keeping and not touching uncleanness unless unavoidable is important. But of more importance is making your heart (and mind) pure. 

Also, I don't think Yeshua was saying don't do n'tilat yadayim. Just understand why you do it, and do it for the right reasons. I do it as part of the idea of praying without ceasing. Many times each day I do it after going to the bathroom, before prayers or before Shabbat services. I can't tell you how often just doing that convicts me of what I was just thinking and causes me to stop. That, I think, is the right motivation. But to be holier than the next guy, or to think I am now ritually clean is not. You can wash any body parts you want, do a complete tevilah 3 times a day, or whatever; but if your heart and mind are not pure then it will all avail you nothing. And for goodness sake, don't go telling everyone else they are doing it wrong or even that they have to do it. The only time a 1st cen Jew would tell someone that is if they are of the same sect, and also from the same school. Everyone else followed their own halacha.

Dan C

edit: I believe on a deeper level, possibly theremez or even the sod level, the cup in Matthew 23:26-28 was a netti cup, a cup set aside only to be used for n'tilat yadayim. And working on the p'shat, or plain language level it was a (different) cup that you would use to drink from. When interpreting based on deeper meanings, the p'shat can never be changed or eliminated. But the relationship hee can be very instructive ... but that'd be a d'rash, which I think I'll leave for later.

[rakovsky]

Dan,
Your reply and these kinds of discussions remind me of the reason why I came to this forum. Thanks for such a careful answer.