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Post by jimmie on Sept 11, 2015 8:42:46 GMT -8
The problem isn't in the original text, or really even in the translation of trust as faith in modern texts. It is in our perception of that word and how we were taught. That said, I do think a more honest and accurate translation of the terms would be "trust" since the object is for the translator (transliterator) to get across to us the actual meaning of the author. Dan C I don’t think we would fare any better with “trust” than we do with “faith.” What you have said about our perception of the word “faith” and what we were taught about it, hold true for “trust” also. What most christians consider “trusting in the LORD”. I consider “tempting the LORD.” I once attended a breakfast fellowship at a Baptist Church. I brought turkey bacon and beef sausage to the event. This prompted a discussing with the preacher, who informed me that eating unclean meats was condemned in the Bible. However he could eat unclean meats because he “trusted in the LORD” to make his actions pure. Using that logic, maybe Jesus should have jumped off the temple. I once attended a Baptist Church which had a “give it all Sunday” twice a year. The pastor actually wanted everyone to give their entire paycheck to GOD, by way of the church offering plate. We were supposed to “trust” the LORD to take care of us that week by other means. Not our labor as that went to the church and not the church as it needed the money we gave for bills. The people who participated, including me, were tempting the LORD not trusting Him. Scripture says that every man should enjoy the fruits of his labor, instead we gave the fruits of our labor away and expected (trusted) God to take care of us. In other words, we were jumping off the temple. “Trust in the LORD” as used by most christians is nothing more than a cliché to kill thought. The differenced in faith and trust is: trust can be used as a verb while faith cannot.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 11, 2015 9:55:11 GMT -8
I really like the points being made about the perception of trust by Christianity. I just want to expand a little and suggest that for some it becomes an easy out. Too often people chalk up their own spiritual laziness or ignorance to trusting the L-rd or having faith. If you trust G-d and have faith in Him, you believe Him enough to be comfortable questioning Him and His way. You know, in time He will prove His wisdom and reassure you while blessing you with yet more reason to trust Him. This is not an approach I saw in Christianity; often their idea of faith or trusting G-d actually reflects a lack of it. Something we have to remember when talking about what we believe with them. I think that's why it is so scary to get into the nitty-gritty of the for so many of them.
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89
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Post by lou on Sept 11, 2015 12:31:41 GMT -8
I believe we shoukd oray every time we give. Asking how much n if the L-rd even wants us to give at that time. There was a time the L-rd asked me to give 100% of my pay to him via offerings, for about a year. I did. He was teachung me to trust Him with my all. I nvr saw so many miracles than i did that year. The happiest i have ever been. I still see the reward from giving generously 17 years later. I have lived in a 5 bd home on two acres for a year free. World travel many times vip free. My designer wardrobe was given to me. I git free groceries for two years free I get deep discounts always. The favor i have seen from giving generously is definitely not normal. We live like wealthy Jews living according to Yahs laws. Thus trust was learned n faith came as a result.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 11, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -8
I believe we shoukd oray every time we give. Asking how much n if the L-rd even wants us to give at that time. There was a time the L-rd asked me to give 100% of my pay to him via offerings, for about a year. I did. He was teachung me to trust Him with my all. I nvr saw so many miracles than i did that year. The happiest i have ever been. I still see the reward from giving generously 17 years later. I have lived in a 5 bd home on two acres for a year free. World travel many times vip free. My designer wardrobe was given to me. I git free groceries for two years free I get deep discounts always. The favor i have seen from giving generously is definitely not normal. We live like wealthy Jews living according to Yahs laws. Thus trust was learned n faith came as a result. He certainly is the G-d of miracles. I hope your life continues to be so blessed.
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89
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Post by lou on Sept 11, 2015 16:43:40 GMT -8
Ty Elizabeth, life lived according to Yahs ways n laws is a life of blessings. May G-d bkess you n yours...
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Post by john75 on Oct 24, 2015 6:51:39 GMT -8
Perhaps a few books were selected to be left out such as maccabees... so the people wont get any rebellious ideas against the government. What do you think about the book of Enoch? The Book of Enoch comes up on the forum from time to time. Last time I recall was in a thread that is somewhat related to this:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3477/sola-scriptura
About 2/3rds of the way down on the 1st page is a post explaining my ideas on it. In addition to what is there I seem to recall that in my studies (a long time back - but you know how senility works, right? You remember things from years ago but can't remember what you had for breakfast ... ); anyhow, I recall several places I read that there was (probably) a book of Enoch long ago, but it is long since lost to us. It would most likely have been available to early writers of the TNK, but not to us. What we have now has been scholastically debunked as a forgery- a pseudepigraphical writing. Now, aren't you impressed I remembered that? (Actually, I had to keep typing different versions into the Farflex Dictionary until it occurred to me that- duh- it was in the post I referenced, and all I had to do was read ... ). Anyhow:
pseud·e·pig·ra·pha (soo′dĭ-pĭg′rə-fə) pl.n. 1. Spurious writings, especially writings falsely attributed to biblical characters or times. 2. A body of texts written between 200 b.c. and a.d. 200 and spuriously ascribed to various prophets and kings of Hebrew Scriptures.
I used to have a book on the book of Enoch, but they were very pro everything in it; especially demonology and Nephilim. I ended up throwing it out. I still have a copy of the book of Enoch itself in my copy of the Apochriripha and the Books of the Ethiopic Bible, but I almost never reference it.
Dan C Hello Dan are you trying to deny the existence of the nephilim? And why? After all they are a great source of trials in this time of tribulation.
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Post by john75 on Oct 24, 2015 6:58:38 GMT -8
The problem isn't in the original text, or really even in the translation of trust as faith in modern texts. It is in our perception of that word and how we were taught. That said, I do think a more honest and accurate translation of the terms would be "trust" since the object is for the translator (transliterator) to get across to us the actual meaning of the author. Dan C I don’t think we would fare any better with “trust” than we do with “faith.” What you have said about our perception of the word “faith” and what we were taught about it, hold true for “trust” also. What most christians consider “trusting in the LORD”. I consider “tempting the LORD.” I once attended a breakfast fellowship at a Baptist Church. I brought turkey bacon and beef sausage to the event. This prompted a discussing with the preacher, who informed me that eating unclean meats was condemned in the Bible. However he could eat unclean meats because he “trusted in the LORD” to make his actions pure. Using that logic, maybe Jesus should have jumped off the temple. I once attended a Baptist Church which had a “give it all Sunday” twice a year. The pastor actually wanted everyone to give their entire paycheck to GOD, by way of the church offering plate. We were supposed to “trust” the LORD to take care of us that week by other means. Not our labor as that went to the church and not the church as it needed the money we gave for bills. The people who participated, including me, were tempting the LORD not trusting Him. Scripture says that every man should enjoy the fruits of his labor, instead we gave the fruits of our labor away and expected (trusted) God to take care of us. In other words, we were jumping off the temple. “Trust in the LORD” as used by most christians is nothing more than a cliché to kill thought. The differenced in faith and trust is: trust can be used as a verb while faith cannot. Hey Jimmie that sounds like an awful place. They have no right to put that sort of peer pressure on the congregation. If the members did fail to feed their families, was the 'church' willing to step back in and feed those lambs?
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Post by alon on Oct 24, 2015 9:23:07 GMT -8
... are you trying to deny the existence of the nephilim? And why? After all they are a great source of trials in this time of tribulation. So then, are you being persecuted by giants?
Scripture does not say that Nephilim were the product of angels and men, just that Nephilim existed.
Genesis 6:1-8 (CJB) In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Adonai said, “My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years.” The N’filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. Adonai saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. Adonai regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them.” But Noach found grace in the sight of Adonai.
Note that the same terminology is used for the births of average men and of Nephilim. "Sons of God" here obviously means men, NOT "angels." Nowhere are angels said to be able to reproduce. Nephilim are powerful men who do evil. I could loosely apply the term to many athletes, politicians, and even captains of industry. Perhaps even the schoolyard bully.
Supporters of the fallen angels and women having children rely heavily on the book of Enoch. However this book has been debunked by Bible scholars as a pseudepegraphical work. It was not included in cannon. Therefore it is not authoritative. There is so much in it that is inconsistent with scripture that I don't even find it instructive.
Dan C
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Post by john75 on Oct 24, 2015 11:36:35 GMT -8
... are you trying to deny the existence of the nephilim? And why? After all they are a great source of trials in this time of tribulation. So then, are you being persecuted by giants?
Scripture does not say that Nephilim were the product of angels and men, just that Nephilim existed.
Genesis 6:1-8 (CJB) In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Adonai said, “My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years.” The N’filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. Adonai saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. Adonai regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them.” But Noach found grace in the sight of Adonai.
Note that the same terminology is used for the births of average men and of Nephilim. "Sons of God" here obviously means men, NOT "angels." Nowhere are angels said to be able to reproduce. Nephilim are powerful men who do evil. I could loosely apply the term to many athletes, politicians, and even captains of industry. Perhaps even the schoolyard bully.
Supporters of the fallen angels and women having children rely heavily on the book of Enoch. However this book has been debunked by Bible scholars as a pseudepegraphical work. It was not included in cannon. Therefore it is not authoritative. There is so much in it that is inconsistent with scripture that I don't even find it instructive.
Dan C
Interesting take on it, if a little simplistic. What you say of the nefilim is true but there is more. I sense this is not the place to put forward things unsupported by Biblical quotes, so i'll leave it there. I like the schoolyard bully reference, very apt.
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Post by Questor on Oct 24, 2015 15:22:42 GMT -8
So then, are you being persecuted by giants?
Scripture does not say that Nephilim were the product of angels and men, just that Nephilim existed.
Genesis 6:1-8 (CJB) In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Adonai said, “My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years.” The N’filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. Adonai saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. Adonai regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them.” But Noach found grace in the sight of Adonai.
Note that the same terminology is used for the births of average men and of Nephilim. "Sons of God" here obviously means men, NOT "angels." Nowhere are angels said to be able to reproduce. Nephilim are powerful men who do evil. I could loosely apply the term to many athletes, politicians, and even captains of industry. Perhaps even the schoolyard bully.
Supporters of the fallen angels and women having children rely heavily on the book of Enoch. However this book has been debunked by Bible scholars as a pseudepegraphical work. It was not included in cannon. Therefore it is not authoritative. There is so much in it that is inconsistent with scripture that I don't even find it instructive.
Dan C
Interesting take on it, if a little simplistic. What you say of the nefilim is true but there is more. I sense this is not the place to put forward things unsupported by Biblical quotes, so i'll leave it there. I like the schoolyard bully reference, very apt. Cannon are elements of warfare...Canon is the description of accepted Inspired of G-d Literature.
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Post by jimmie on Oct 28, 2015 14:29:42 GMT -8
Hey Jimmie that sounds like an awful place. They have no right to put that sort of peer pressure on the congregation. If the members did fail to feed their families, was the 'church' willing to step back in and feed those lambs?[/quote] The pastor would take up a love offering for those who were unable to feed their families.
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Post by john75 on Dec 8, 2015 9:57:15 GMT -8
Hey Jimmie that sounds like an awful place. They have no right to put that sort of peer pressure on the congregation. If the members did fail to feed their families, was the 'church' willing to step back in and feed those lambs? The pastor would take up a love offering for those who were unable to feed their families. [/quote] That at least is something. Im still a little wary of giving all of my " substance " like that. I remember Jesus said "Its is written, Thou shall not put The Lord thy God to the test. Surely this runs dangerously close to disobeying that commandment?
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