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Post by el Gusano on Jul 19, 2004 0:09:51 GMT -8
I would also like to point out that appropriate dress is also somewhat subjective. Here in Alsaka, and particularly in the rural areas, dressing up means wearing the Carharts without so many holes in them and hopefully they've been washed recently. Due to my broken leg, I've been wearning shorts. I know one lady who wears a dress from the 60's or 70's and a straw hat; that's her nice clothes. She's not poor, but the rest of her clothes are work clothes. Dressing up is not very practical here, except in the cities like Anchorage and Juneau. It's doable in cities like Fairbanks and Soldotna, but even then, urban living is not very different from rural living.
However, back in Tennessee, where my family lives, I usually wear a coat and tie. Even here, when I'm preaching, I wear at least a tie. I wear a coat when it's not too hot (we have no AC anywhere, so when it's 75 outside, it's sweltering inside if there's no cross breeze). Now, when I go down South next time, I may be seeking missionary funding to support me at a church in a remote village. If I do that, I will wear my Carharts and flannel shirt, simply for effect.
I know this does not necessarily apply to skimpy clothes, but it does point out that there are different circumstances and different attitudes. Around here, a girl in a bikini might draw less attention than a girl in a set of Greuden's.
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 19, 2004 11:19:30 GMT -8
I simply meant in the phrase "sabbath-sitter" someone who goes to church or synogogue to sit, pray, look good, and then go home un-affected by the message or God.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 19, 2004 16:20:48 GMT -8
Thank you for the clarification brother
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Post by Jessica on Jul 25, 2004 23:52:15 GMT -8
After my husband and I were engaged God moved on our hearts in the area of kissing. We were already committed to remaining pure until we were married but then we decided to save our first kiss until our wedding day. That was one of the best decisions we ever made. Our engagement was a year long and it was amazing because God honored that and helped us against temptation. Once we took that intimate side away then there was room to really get to know eachother, to become the closest, most best friends. It was such a beautiful moment when in front of all our guests under a chupah we kissed eachother for the first time. Please do not think that I am saying everyone has to do it this way, this is just what the LORD had us do and we have been so blessed because of it. Shalom!
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 26, 2004 0:02:24 GMT -8
Shalom Jessica Thank you so much for sharing that. Your husband, and you provide a most worthy model. May you continually be blessed in your marriage! B'Shem Yeshua, Reuel
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 3:44:01 GMT -8
Hypothetical situations... Who can judge? Lets say I choose to sit down with my grandson who is 14 or my granddaughter to talk about the birds and the bees. After considering this subject for a while I think I will. The first thing is to talk about is clothing and exposure. A person should be clothed from the shoulder to the knee with no exposed skin. It is sometimes acceptable to expose the shoulder, the knee and the stomach. Men sometimes go without a shirt. Bathing suits are no exception. You must never look at a person who is not properly clothed unless you are married to that person. A person must never touch or allow themselves to be touched anywhere that is never exposed unless you are married to that person. A person must never be touched anywhere if they object. A person should not be kissed or allow themselves to be kissed unless they know the other person very well. Extended kissing or hugging is not allowed unless you are planning to marry that person. A boy and a girl are not allowed to be alone unless you are planning to marry that person. Any plan to marry must be approved by the parents until at least the age of 20. These sound like pretty good guidelines. I'm a young man myself, of seventeen years and plan to use them while I'm at college.
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 3:47:45 GMT -8
These are some good guidelines. What do you think about arranging marriages? Just a thought. I'm not saying that this is what I will be doing, or teaching any time soon. Shalom achi, Reuel Wow I wish my father had already picked out my wife. It'd be a lot easier on me than to have to go out and find one..... One thing I've always wondered.... It was Yosef's place to pick out a wife for his Son (or I guess step-son) but Yehoshua doesn't seem to have ever been married. Was it because Yosef died when Yehoshua was very young?
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 3:50:31 GMT -8
I believe that a boy and girl should be supervised always before marraige when they are together. They must be watched with the scruples of both parents. I believe neither man nor woman should expose anywhere from thier shoulders to thier knees, even when swimming. I beleive so because even lust is a sin not the physical contact, and even the most un-appealing man is appealing to some woman. (or perhaps another man) A woman should never be touched in any affectionate way in public, this excludes kissing and hugging, but even hugging and kissing should be left for marraige. That is why the couple kisses when they are married; it was something they could not do before; at least in the old times. Your points are good and true but how could I ever find a wife like that? Even the most mild-mannered Jewish or Christian girls will want you to kiss them at some point after you've dated for a while. *sigh* It is a hard decision. Women are hard to deal with.
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 3:55:50 GMT -8
Is the rule look once your a man, look twice you are lusting?
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Post by JohnJoeMittler on Feb 23, 2005 8:44:59 GMT -8
The first thing is to talk about is clothing and exposure. A person should be clothed from the shoulder to the knee with no exposed skin. It is sometimes acceptable to expose the shoulder, the knee and the stomach. Men sometimes go without a shirt. Bathing suits are no exception. You must never look at a person who is not properly clothed unless you are married to that person. A person must never touch or allow themselves to be touched anywhere that is never exposed unless you are married to that person. A person must never be touched anywhere if they object. A person should not be kissed or allow themselves to be kissed unless they know the other person very well. Extended kissing or hugging is not allowed unless you are planning to marry that person. A boy and a girl are not allowed to be alone unless you are planning to marry that person. Any plan to marry must be approved by the parents until at least the age of 20. Was this a quote from somewhere? Good stuff, but so far from reality in modern west. I don't admire the compromises included in that list, though... I prefer this dress code: www.777life.com/dresscode/index.html
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 23, 2005 22:02:39 GMT -8
JohnJoeMittler, Shalom and welcome to Ahavat Elohim Messianic Discussion Forums! Thank you for sharing B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach (In the name of Yeshua The Messiah), Reuel
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Post by Mark on Feb 26, 2005 6:41:47 GMT -8
The arranged marriage thing is no joke! I have a good friend with six children who has been approached at least twice by parents wishing to do something contractual. He was shocked (as I would be if it happened to me), and as graciously as only he could possibly do, told them that he would eventually let them make their own decisions.
It's very interesting that a discussion on dating and courtship went traight toward the dress code. If you think about it, what is dating except drawing someone into a more intimate relationship?
A young fellow drove up to this man's house in a bright red, fancy car. He nervously sauntered up to the man and introduced himself. He said that he came to ask permission to date the man's daughter. The man stopped what he was doing, invited the young man in for a glass of lemonaide and proceeded to chat with him. Finally he said, "If I had come over to your place yesterday and introduced myself then asked to take your car for a spin, what would you say?" The boy laughed at bold proposterous idea. The father continued, "You're asking to take my daughter out for a test drive. She's more important to me than I could ever imagine your car being to you. I'd like to get to know you first."
We see dating as preparation for marriage. We believe that God has designed men and women to be sexually attracted to one another. I've noticed that men's view of what is sexy and provokative is not a constant denominator. That which is the most attractive of whatever happens to be available will be lusted after, if the man's heart is roving.
Biblically, the responsibility is put squarely on the shoulders of the person looking. The woman is never told to not be naked in the presence of her father. Dad is told not to look. Yes, we are commanded not to put up a stumbling-block. It's important to dress modestly; but, see the above paragraph.
We teach that dressing modestly is not just showing skin; but dressing in any way that purposely draws attention to yourself or that leads the eye to areas of the body which are off-limits. For us, this includes (for girls, especially), t-shirts with printing across the upper chest. It means, you don't wear a tuxedo to the grocery store as much as it means you don't wear a bikini to school.
We also teach our daughters (I have three of them) that men are inclined to look one level past what is being offered. This means if you are wearing a long dress, they are inclined to look toward your legs. If you are wearing shorts, they are inclined to look toward your pubic area. If you are wearing short sleeves, their attention is drawn toward the shoulder, if wearing a sleeveless outfit, the eyes are drawn toward the breast. We work very hard to make our women's wordrobes complimentary and attractive without being suggestive or alluring.
Something that a lot of folks think is weird is that my children do not kiss my wife or I on the lips. We kiss on the cheek. The lips are reserved only for that one person whom God will give us to wed. I've always thought it comical that the officiant at a wedding declares, "You may now kiss the bride," after the ceremony. Oh, now they have permission?
We see courtship as a family matter. As a father, if a young man comes shopping for one of my daughters, it is my job to take him under my wing and apprentice that young man to be my daughter's husband.
I know a man with five daughters, one is now married. His daughters make a list of what they want in a husband. First are the non-negotiables. These are qualities or characteristics a guy must have to even be considered. Next is a list of what she would like. Below that is what will immediately disqualify a fellow and finally what she would not prefer. When a young man comes calling, the Dad uses his daughter's list to size the guy up. Some o fthem he can easily say, "You don't qualify." Others, he may tell, "These are some areas I need to see manifest in your life before we can begin discussing my daughter." Others, he welcomes heartily into his home. The daughters can amend their list at any time they wish.
There's a lot of material out there on dating and courtship. It is serious business. Our culture in particular endorses temporary, disposable relationships. I want to protect my kids from that kind of spiritual and emotional damage.
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Kathy
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by Kathy on Apr 5, 2005 12:53:57 GMT -8
What good advice , what do women do that are over 40 ? who would be the overseer , when the father is gone or dosent wish to do this ? dating and courtship can become life or death , if it turns into sex without marriage , this is an extremely important issue . I,m a single parent of a daughter , so one day this will fall to me .
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 5, 2005 23:59:23 GMT -8
I believe that you would want to seek the assistance of your spiritual community in this matter. If they are not willing to help or for some other reason this is not possible, at the very least seek a man that is living for the Kingdom of Elohim that knows he has an overseer. Shalom sister,
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Apr 7, 2005 17:02:57 GMT -8
I think arranged marriage can work as long as in the end the children have no real outcries. I think that men and women should not touch in terms of modern "friendship". No hugging and things of that nature unless marraige is in the future. I believe that any true chasid (pious person) cannot actually befriend a young woman who is not truly modest either about her actions (what she does with her partner) or with her dress.
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