Seeker2
Junior Member
"I will seek Your face in righousness;I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness."
Posts: 53
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Post by Seeker2 on Oct 25, 2006 12:23:37 GMT -8
Well, I dont think we can suppose that everyone who comes to a messianic congregation is keeping . We have many visitors who are christians trying to learn and therefore I dont think you can presume that just because you are there everyone is on the same page. Further, sitting after an unclean man or woman would make one unclean regardless (why do you think most unclean women can make the place where they sit unclean and not men?? It would be very unlikely for both!). I am NOT saying we should not keep ! What an accusation! In some ways we are very blessed to have the modern conviences we have today as in we all (most of us!) shower daily. Wouldnt this be the same as washing the unclean hands under running water that the Rabbis taught? Further, most people (women and men I hope) are concious of sanitation and disease prevention and do wash their hands before eating, going to the BR, touching something dead, etc. Some degree of "cleaness" is built into society. I just dont see how the goal of fellowship and community is helped by sharing too much information and causing embarrasment and to people. (At this juncture I want to say that I DO NOT wish to discuss male uncleaness as it is a rather vulger subject that I brought up in principle only.) And I dont think christians are puposefully sinning by not following ...they dont know any better and we should help them understand about the sabbath, etc. which is a Blessing to THEM as well as us! I think we should always remember the words "take heed if you think you stand lest you fall" as that applies to those who have the tendancy to put their faith in keeping the law rather than in the work of Yeshua (Praise G-d for Yeshua!). And indeed I would never argue with anyone who said we are saved by faith! I think G-d made it clear that we are not to judge another man's servant so I will leave that alone. Peace to you friend. We may be neighbors in eternity so let's not quarrel. May Yeshua cover all of our uncleaness!
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 25, 2006 14:15:57 GMT -8
Here is about two cents worth of unscholarly thought on this subject, while I do not try to find ways to be unclean, my wife is old and past the point of sleeping alone. Yeshua speaking; Mt 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! A while back a Jewish Rabbi came to my area to show the items created for the Temple to be built as soon as God's time is right. Many people came to hear him speak and show the items, young and old, male and female, this Rabbi at the end of the meeting greeted all who came and never abstained from touching each ladies hand if she extended it to shake his hand, no doubt some of these people had touched someone unclean, possibly had eaten pork for lunch, maybe had touched a dead thing or person earlier in the day! This being the case the Rabbi was rendered unclean and would remain unclean until "Even" some 20 hours later. What do you suppose this learned man, keeper of , did in this case? Wouldn't he just wash his clothes and enter a mikva and be clean again? Shalom I am with Pioneer on this one. Also, forgive me for this, but if I am correct, many here are not born Jewish, and have no experience in a Jewish observant community. I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, and I have to say that this was never a discussion that came up in our synagogue. Of course, we were more careful than most are in the casual settings of today's christian and Messianic assemblies. We were not about touching or hugging women other than Mom and Sisters for instance. I think it is important to not lose focus as to the purpose of observant Messianic Judaism, and that is to win the lost to Messiah. To the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. Winning the lost to Messiah, and performing Tikun Olam is not about offending people with our legalistic, and ritualistic observance of some laws, while we fail in mercy and love. I also have to agree with Mark regarding Yeshua, and the humanity that existed when He allowed a woman who had an issue for many years touch Him. He thought it was more important to minister to the woman, then it was to remain clean. Shalom, Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 25, 2006 14:34:45 GMT -8
Gentlement, please do not misunderstand me. I am not arguing that it is a goal within itself to keep clean, or that it is better to keep clean than to minister. Not at all. I am simply contending that, if we are going to observe , we must be willing to observe it all, including the laws of cleanliness. I am not saying that it is wrong to become unclean, but that it is proper to wash afterwards. I am not contending that a woman (or man, for that matter) has to walk around with a big red and yellow sign that says "UNCLEAN!!!" But I just plain don't have enough clothes to wash my clothes in water every day. If I'm not mistaken, the only mitzwa I have read regarding where an unclean person has sat had to do with a woman in her period. I may have missed one or two, but that is the only one I know of. It makes sense if you think about it. I did not accuse you of that. I pointed out that many of the arguments have been that we are made clean by Messiah. True, in a spiritual sense, but in our spirituality we cannot forget the physical. I don't really have any desire to discuss anything that would be embarrasing to you. I was merely replying that I am not disturbed by that subject, and that I attempt to live by those commands aswell. (by the bye, I don't shower every day, because showering reduces the number of good bacterea on your body, opening you up to infection and disease. :-)) I would not judge someone for not keeping , and I do not judge the Christians, who have never been taught. I am objecting to those who understand the role of in our lives, and yet do not want to live by certain commandments. We cannot pick and choose. I don't have any problems with you, brother. I may disagree, but I try not to quarrel. Yitzchak, I would not discuss these laws with Christians. I would not tell them that they're going to Hell because they don't keep every mitzwa, but I am speaking to Messianics. I see a distinct difference. And I still disagree with you about Yeshua, due to reasons stated before, but that really isn't an important point. Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 25, 2006 20:05:16 GMT -8
Nachson, Please don't misunderstand my points either. I am simply trying to bring a balance, and keep the discussion from getting out of hand. As has been said before, we appreciate your undertanding of the scriptures, your input, and your zeal for HaShem's . You are right, and I agree that we cannot place this type of burden on christians. However, as has been discussed many times on this and other threads, it is difficult to broadbrush Messianics. There are as many different streams of Messianic Judaism as there are denominations in chritianity. Not all Messianic groups follow . Those that do, do so at differing levels. While I do agree in part with what you are saying, I find it most interesting that the bulk of the laws regarding cleanliness were given due to the Mishkan being in the midst of the camp. I believe this was protection for the Israelites, as G-d dwelt amonst them. Shalom, Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 26, 2006 5:15:34 GMT -8
I agree, that was the aim of these laws, but they are still commandments, not to remain clean, but to wash in water and remain unclean until evening, or simply to remain unclean until evening, etc. As for those Messianics who do not keep , the only problem with that is that they still pretend that it's a "Jewish" thing. But those who keep only to a certain "level," I believe, may as well not do any at all. Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 26, 2006 5:17:23 GMT -8
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think that many points here have been well made. I would have to say that I agree with most of what has already been posted. So please indulge me as I post this summary: 1) Niddah is an important part of 2) If we are striving to keep in obedience to HaShem and in emulation of Moshiach, then we can not neglect the laws of Niddah 3) Niddah is most certainly a private matter between husband and wife 4) If one interacts with others who are known to be observant, then it is best to avoid contact if they are unclean 5) It is not a sin for one to be unclean, it only means that that individual (man or woman) can not take part in certain activities until they become clean 6) Following Yeshua's example, it is of greater weight (kol v'khomer) to minister to those around us than to be ritually clean posted by YitzchakBy the way we live our lives. Agreed! posted by YitzchakHang on a sec here. Even the sages acknowledged that there is a very fine line between keeping all the mitzvot to the best of your ability (with all your heart, soul, and might), and crossing over into legalism. One must take extreme caution not to cross that line. But I most certainly agree that we fail many times over in showing chesed to our brothers and the goyim.
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 26, 2006 10:43:46 GMT -8
I am sorry, but on this one I cannot budge. Anytime we view our observance of mitzvot requiring being clean more important than being offensive to a believer, or worse yet a non-believer, then I believe we have crossed over into legalism.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 26, 2006 11:47:27 GMT -8
I am sorry, but on this one I cannot budge. Anytime we view our observance of mitzvot requiring being clean more important than being offensive to a believer, or worse yet a non-believer, then I believe we have crossed over into legalism. Hmm... Okay, so let me give an example. I know for a fact that my in-laws regard my family's observance as offensive. They are both Christian and my mother-in-law is even Jewish (though a staunch Christian). According to a literal interpretation of your standpoint of not offending those around us, that would mean that we would have to cease keeping when in their presence in order to not be offensive to them. Slicha achi, but I most certainly have to disagree with that position. How many times through the course of Israel's history have the nevi'im and men of G-d been true to HaShem which has in turn resulted in people being offended, and ultimately resulted in their deaths? I think the real issue is that if we remain true to HaShem that people will be drawn to him. People will always be offended no matter what course you take. Now let me qualify all this... As we go about our daily lives living in obedience to HaShem, we should always remember to be disciples of Yeshua and Aaron pursuing shalom v'chesed (peace and lovingkindness). And that includes not being offensive or forcing our opinions on others. Shalom, Natanel
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 26, 2006 12:36:12 GMT -8
Amein Natanel, akhiy.
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 26, 2006 19:32:48 GMT -8
You misunderstood my point Achi. If you re-read my posts, I make it clear that I am speaking about non believers, and not christians or other Messianics.
See above. BTW, their obedience to HaShem was bringing a strong word about disobedience, idol worship, and trusting in something other than HaShem. Niddah was never something that came up in their rebukes of Israel.
People will not be drawn to HaShem if they are required to wear a certain type of clothing to separate them from the community. Keep in mind again what the purpose of the purity laws were about. People will not be drawn to HaShem if you can't sit in the same seat as they just did, or because you fear touching them. Yeshua was not concerned with this, as Mark pointed out, and we are to do as He did. Wash yourself, and wash your clothes if need be, but do not have your observance turn someone away from HaShem.
Agreed. So, re-read some of the things that have been presented here, and then tell me that they were offered through the grace and love of the Ruach.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 26, 2006 21:20:19 GMT -8
"People will not be drawn to HaShem if they are required to wear a certain type of clothing to separate them from the community. Keep in mind again what the purpose of the purity laws were about. People will not be drawn to HaShem if you can't sit in the same seat as they just did, or because you fear touching them. Yeshua was not concerned with this, as Mark pointed out, and we are to do as He did. Wash yourself, and wash your clothes if need be, but do not have your observance turn someone away from HaShem." I must beg to differ. If someone is not willing to look different, and to be a member of a peculiar people, then they are not drawn to YHWH anyway. Sir, being a member of 'am Yisra'el is about being set apart, a kingdom of Priests. It is not about fitting in. With any crowd.
Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 27, 2006 2:18:12 GMT -8
"People will not be drawn to HaShem if they are required to wear a certain type of clothing to separate them from the community. Keep in mind again what the purpose of the purity laws were about. People will not be drawn to HaShem if you can't sit in the same seat as they just did, or because you fear touching them. Yeshua was not concerned with this, as Mark pointed out, and we are to do as He did. Wash yourself, and wash your clothes if need be, but do not have your observance turn someone away from HaShem." I must beg to differ. If someone is not willing to look different, and to be a member of a peculiar people, then they are not drawn to YHWH anyway. Sir, being a member of 'am Yisra'el is about being set apart, a kingdom of Priests. It is not about fitting in. With any crowd. Shalom, Nachshon People look different when they are changed by the Ruach Elohim. This is a heart issue, and not a "red scarf" issue. YHVH does not look at the outward things, but the heart. Does this mean that we should blatantly ignore His mitzvot? Of course not. Young man, while you were not even a twinkle in your parents eyes, and perhaps before your parents were born, I was being chased and having rocks thrown at me for wearing Kippah and TzitTzit. I have practiced family purity in my home and marriage, something that you have yet to experience at your age. So, please do not be presemptuous enough to lecture me about being set apart. While you do not recognize that Yeshua allowed Himself to become unclean, it does not change the fact that He did. He came as a man for a reason. In my opinion you now strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You would do well to meditate and the weightier things that YHVH requires of us. Shalom, Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Oct 27, 2006 6:09:47 GMT -8
I did not say that anyone is required to wear a red scarf, but that we will, as bneyi Avraham, stand out. We should not be afraid of this. I know a lot of Christians who stand out more than my Messianic friends. Why? Because they are dedicated enough to Father that it doesn't concern them how they look. That, I believe, is most honorable. To be so wrapped up in following our Creator that we forget how different we look.
Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Oct 27, 2006 6:11:13 GMT -8
Perhaps I did misunderstand, but you did say "offensive to a believer or non-believer." You didn't draw a distinction in that statement. I think I know you fairly well, if only through your words (since we've never met). And I know that you are a strong advocate for . The problem I had was with the use of the word "offensive," because of the very example I gave. Right, but I was continuing on the theme of general observance. I think you're right, but that is why when introducing someone to HaShem you teach them a few mitzvot at a time. If we introduce someone to HaShem and then tell them, "Okay now that you are serving G-d you must keep all 613 mitzvot and follow established halacha," then it would drive them off. The Beit Din in Yerushalayim recognized this, hence their ruling in Acts 15. {As a sidenote: the only reason that clothing was even brought up was because someone was asking about it. Who knew that it would be such a delicate subject?} So, following that train of thought... I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.
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Post by Yitzchak on Oct 27, 2006 11:45:43 GMT -8
I thought I had made a distinction between the two. Sorry for the miscommunication
This is my whole point, and I should have just said it this way.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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