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Post by Nachshon on Feb 17, 2007 16:01:29 GMT -8
Didn't Yeshua "break" the decrees of man? I believe we should live by the Word of G-d verus to the decrees of man. By what referance is kindling a fire? Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? Marc The command against kindling a fire on Shabbat is clearly in . This discussion is purely about how to interpret that command. This is not about "decrees of man" but how, exactly, we interpret the decrees that Father gave us. That being said, I have to conceed that y'all have a point. It appears that starting a vehicle would not fit under the definition of starting a fire. Shabbat shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 17, 2007 20:45:37 GMT -8
I would say no, as I see work defined as any creative act that manipulates nature. So... no, I don't see how using the bathroom on Shabbat would be a creative act. It is a normal bodily function. I have yet to hear of a Rabbi that would forbid it. Very unusual. You'd think so. I know I used to. But if you define work on Shabbat as any creative act, then walking would not fall into that category. Reuel, you asked about the sacrifices being offered on Shabbat. This is yet another instance of Rabbi Y'hoshua upholding the established halacha. For only in the Oral do we find that the cohenim offer sacrifices on Shabbat and are yet held blameless. [Matityahu 12:5 & Shabbat 132b] And therefore what we find, is that according to halacha it is permissible to break Shabbat under certain conditions (ie...serving in the Temple, saving a life, medical situations, etc...). Seeker, I hear what you're saying, but is no-one serious enough about establishing a community that they would not be willing to all live within walking distance? Think of the benefits brought about by living in close proximity to each other. I know it's not possible for some, but it sure would be a boost in bringing people together. As far as Rabbi Y'hoshua breaking the decrees of man, I would argue that not only did not violate established halacha, he upheld it. I may start a thread on that at some point. Shavua Tov, Natanel
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Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Feb 17, 2007 21:29:56 GMT -8
My teacher points out that there is only the healing on the Shabbat, the rest of the accusations are against his disciples, and this teacher assures me that each one of these is preplanned, stating a disciple does what the Rabbi does, each of these events Yeshua wants the question to come up so he may teach on the subject. Why do your Disciples?
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 18, 2007 9:46:04 GMT -8
Natanel, I must disagree with your definition of what is work. You say it is any creative act. However, if that is so, then Father Himself violated Shabbat. It says that on the seventh day He finished His work. What? He finished it. On Shabbat He created rest. The allowance for sacrifices is an implied command in the . Because sacrifices are commanded on Shabbat, and Father would not command anyone to violate , it follows logically that this would be an exemption. We do not need "Oral " to come to that conclusion. Also, it is written in that a man is allowed to feed animals, or pull an ox from a ditch on the Shabbat. Don't all of the commands regarding good works, Temple service, and saving a life on Shabbat follow logically from these? Didn't Yeshua make a paste on Shabbat? Shalom, Nachshon
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Otto
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by Otto on Feb 27, 2007 18:51:48 GMT -8
Kindling a fire on Shabbat
To kindle [to start a fire] a fire on Shabbat. Let’s go back just 100 years and start a fire. First you need: Kindling,-{dry grass, & twigs)
Tinder,-{sticks the size of fingers)
Fuel-{logs the size of your wrist & larger. and enough to keep a fire going all night and day during cold weather)
Now that you have enough wood piled up you can start a fire. Flint & steel has been a common way to start fire for a very long time. First, one would take a small piece of [soft] steel bent in the shape of a small horse shoe, called a (Striker). Dry grass would be held in the hand with the striker, now a piece of flint or sharp hard steel, would have been struck agents the striker sending red hot shavings [sparks] from the striker onto the dry grass. The grass would have to be wrapped around the glowing spark quickly & brought to the mouth and gently blown on until the grass burst into flam. This flam would have to quickly be placed into a small pile of kindling [twigs & more dry grass]. Once the kindling is burning, then Tinder can be placed onto the fire, and once the Tinder is burning then Fuel can be placed onto the fire. Once enough fuel is burning then food may begin to be cooked. If enough wood has been gathered than a fire can be keep burning all night and day by just adding fuel. Fire was used for cooking, warmth, & light. Kindling a fire on Shabbat has a different meaning when looking at it in the proper context. Allow me to ask this: if a person 2000 years ago, fire went out in the dead of winter could He/ she restart the fire?. How about if the Furness fire went out today in the dead of winter, should a family sit in the cold till Shabbat was over? Or go down strike a match and relight the Furness? I believe it is a heart matter, why does one do what he does on Shabbat.
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Post by Prodigal Girl on Apr 26, 2007 12:36:24 GMT -8
I am assuming that since animals were to be given a rest on the Sabbath, that it was not hallachic to use them to ride on or pull carts on the Sabbath to get to services. That is probably where the tradition came from. It was just carried over to motorized vehicles which have only been in use for less than a century by ordinary people, or rather, those minority of persons in the world who actually can afford a car. Most people in the world can't. Personally, I think that any time you use a motor, you are doing work. So I can definitely understand the hallachic position on this. I mean, I remember something from grade school science class about that machines are used to do work. And in the case of a vehicle, you are causing others to work if you have car problems while you are out and about. There are also a ton of distractions and temptations when you go out. I also know that in the instruction about the Sabbath, it says to stay home on the Sabbath. Yes, I know that is in the context of work, going out to gather manna, and that we are supposed to assemble on the Sabbath. But putting the two instructions together, fire and staying home, I am wondering if G-d's best plan for us is to walk, and when we can't, then to start our own assembly locally, even if it is small. Perhaps in the Master plan, the big picture, for His purposes, which He has not revealed to us, He really does want us to put some effort into doing what it takes to try to not drive on Shabbat. Think about what happens when a community forms that lives close together; all the ramifications of this. What if all the Messianics decided to do this? What if we decided to get radical? We would sure stand out. Yikes!
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Post by Yitzchak on Apr 26, 2007 19:08:36 GMT -8
Shalom All,
The more I study this matter, the more I am convinced that all one need to do is look at the issue of Shabbat within the context it is written about.
For instance, each time the Shabbat is spoken about regarding work and rest, it is in the context of the building of the Mishkan.
The Hebrews were given some very specific instructions as to what they were to build, and each was given their specific tasks. The scripture even tells us that HaShem gave some of them special knowledge and understanding to perform the work.
Is it possible that in their zeal to complete the task of building the Mishkan, that perhaps they were forgetting that the Shabbat was more important than their work. Is it possible that HaShem was reminding them that while building a tabernacle for His glory to reside was important, that the Hebrews stopping and setting apart the Shabbat according to His command was of greater importance. Taking the time to be intimate and quiet before G-d.
All of the people knew what their work was, as do we. We do not need anyone to tell us what is a distraction to us, we know, and those times we don't the Ruach is certainly capable of imparting this knowledge just as He did with the building of the Mishkan.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 28, 2007 10:40:36 GMT -8
Exodus 16:23 is not in context of building the Tabernacle. "And he said unto them: 'This is that which the LORD hath spoken: To-morrow is a solemn rest, a holy sabbath unto the LORD. Bake that which ye will bake, and seethe that which ye will seethe; and all that remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.'" (JPS)
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Post by Yitzchak on Apr 28, 2007 21:58:42 GMT -8
Exodus 16:23 is not in context of building the Tabernacle. "And he said unto them: 'This is that which the LORD hath spoken: To-morrow is a solemn rest, a holy sabbath unto the LORD. Bake that which ye will bake, and seethe that which ye will seethe; and all that remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.'" (JPS) Yes, it is not within the context of the Mishkan, but it does have a unique context. It is has to do with the murmuring going on for their hunger. HaShem brought quail, and manna day after day, but allowed them to collect enough for two days so that they would have enough food for the Sabbath. This scripture in no way deals with the question of what is and what is not work, or whether it is right or wrong to kindle the fire. Shalom, Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 29, 2007 5:32:40 GMT -8
On Shabbat I did study this subject, and I realised two things. The first was the commandment to not leave your place on Shabbat. It's in Exd 16, aswell. The term used for "do not" isn't lo', it's 'al. Lo' tells us to never do something. 'al tells us not to do it right now. the context and term are clear.
The second was the commandment about kindling a fire. Right after that command comes the command for an offering of metal for building the Tabernacle. It could very easily be that this command is referring to forging the metal for the Tabernacle.
Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 29, 2007 8:58:28 GMT -8
I keep it simple the command is to not kindle a fire on Sabbath so I don't.
Now I may heat up something but don't make a fire.
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 29, 2007 9:56:07 GMT -8
Akhiy Marc, The question is this: Is that the original intent of the commandment? Do you have pe'os? Well, doesn't the command us to not mar the corners of our beards? You don't wear them because the commandment is in the context of pagan mourning practices. I'm just trying to see if there is something similar with this command. Was it given within a specific context? Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Prodigal Girl on Apr 30, 2007 18:42:45 GMT -8
The command of not to kindle a fire makes perfect sense to me, after having started to practice the Sabbath since a few months ago. When you cook, you tend to make more mess to clean up, more dishes, more work in general. The Bible was amazingly specific about not having even the servants in the house work on the Sabbath. So cool. I have found that if I truly plan ahead starting after sundown when Sabbath ends, for the next Sabbath, I work harder and smarter, more efficiently. So I am looking forward to having a fantastic Sabbath, as good as I can make it by following His guidelines. So yes, I do look at the Rabbis' list, I do not have a negative feeling about it after reading it, though you would think I would as I am from a church background. I truly think that in general it is helpful. What I tend to try to keep in mind is that His laws are to help us as a people. He loves us. So the thing to question, is not if a law is in the context of pagan practices, so much as how does this commandment demonstrate the love of G-d? Sabbath is SO fantastic. Go to a third-world country like Pakistan and see how the people have to work 7 days a week. The norm for most of the population of the world is to do that. Or look at our country where men and women work so hard they don't even have time to raise their own kids properly, or even get enough sleep, and lead stressed out lives. So yes, I do pay attention to what the Bible says about the Sabbath. I also have at least as much respect for the opinions of those who have believed in it and tried to keep it, as I do for those who ignore it or speak negatively of it.
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Post by Nachshon on May 1, 2007 19:52:28 GMT -8
But if we take the commandments out of their context then we cannot understand how much a given law demonstrates His love for us. It is only by understanding the law, and what its purpose was that we can see His love reflected through it.
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Post by Mark on Jun 28, 2009 8:25:57 GMT -8
This year, American Independence Day falls on Shabbat. Are there any creative ways of celebrating these freedoms that don't involve BBQ pits and pyrotechnics? And how do we respond to those around us inviting us to participate and possibly misinterpretting our response as unpatriotic?
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