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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jul 12, 2005 10:14:03 GMT -8
Here's another thought to add to this thread: If Yeshua is the incarnate, then that belief becomes a double-edged sword. For the Christians who knowingly reject , they reject the Messiah. Likewise l'am Yisrael who reject the true Messiah (not a false image of one who did away with ), they are rejecting . Are we saved by the chesed of the Almighty? Absolutely! We always have been. If our salvation was based on observance then we would all be condemned to Gei Hinnom. However, faith is more than just saying that you believe in something. Faith requires that you live out your life in accordance with observance. What sets us apart from the Christian community at large is that we acknowledge the need for observance in addition to our belief in the Messiah; for you cannot have one without the other.
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Post by messimom on Jul 12, 2005 12:57:07 GMT -8
AMEN and AMEN!!
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 13, 2005 21:04:05 GMT -8
Well said Notzari Yehudi. You don't knowingly reject part of without rejecting Yeshua, for He is the word incarnate...the . But, we are all on a path of sanctification. It is a constant walk of faith which is manifested in obedience. We cannot stop along the way and call it good. The scriptures say we must hold our trust until the end. Truly salvatio is by the grace of G'd through trust. But, if we begin to reject G'd and His revelation at some point in our life as it is revealed to us, then we will be held accountable, our previous walk will not be remembered as we have chosen to reject G'd in our future walk. This is true because faith without works is truly a dead faith, and not one to count on.... "Say to them, As I live, declares the adonai YHVH, I do not have delight in the death of the wicked, except in the wicked turning from his way, and so to live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why will you die, O house of Israel? And you, son of man, say to the sons of your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his trespass. And the evil of the evil, in the day he turns from his wickedness, he shall not fall by it. And the righteous shall not be able to live by it in the day he sins. Though I say to the righteous, Living he shall live, yet he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but he shall die for his iniquity which he has done. And though I say to the wicked, Dying you shall die; if he turns from his sin and does justice and righteousness, if the wicked returns the pledge, he repays the thing stolen, he walks in the statutes of life, not doing iniquity, living he shall live; he shall not die. All his sins which he has sinned shall not be remembered to him; he has done justice and righteousness, living he shall live. Yet the sons of your people say, The way of adonai is not fair. But they, even their way is not fair. When the righteous turns from his righteousness and does iniquity, he shall even die by them. But if the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does justice and righteousness, he shall live by them. Yet you say, The way of adonai is not fair. I shall judge you, each man by his ways, O house of Israel." - Yechezkel (Ezek.) 33:11-20 It was true then and it is true now...or, does G'd change? Shalom b'Yeshua, Reuel
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Post by Prodigal Girl on Apr 21, 2007 18:04:26 GMT -8
Hi all, new here. I understand the concept that faith without works is dead. I also understand that the Bible says that obeying His commandments is not too difficult to do, and that He wants us to obey them. I also understand that none of us has not sinned, we all need the saving blood of Yeshua to cover our sins. What I struggle with, is the concept that all must follow perfectly or they are not saved. Because even after we become believers, I am not sure that any of us ever become without sin except as seen through the blood of Yeshua. Not that we can't, because we should be able to through the power of Yeshua. But I am not sure that any of us does. Even the most righteous looking (to others) person sins in "small" ways; maybe gets angry, says an unkind word, speaks thoughtlessly, has a prideful feeling, maybe just ignores someone, or whatever. Also there are plenty in the church, even church leaders that sin in "big" ways, then "repent" (hopefully a genuine repentance) and are restored. Who are we to say that because they sinned after accepting Yeshua as Savior, that they are not saved after they repent? Any less than we who sin in the "small" ways? Can we really say, that a person who demonstrates genuine love and true humility, and depends on Jesus for salvation knowing that they are not perfect and need His cleansing blood, is not saved because they have been taught wrong by the church concerning the "finer points of the law" or are simply unaquainted with or exposed to anything "Jewish"? I also believe that people can be very clever at obeying the letter of the law, but not following the Spirit of it. I also believe that believers in each culture have to let confront the culture they come from, and see how it applies to cultural practice in the culture they come from. Eating a kid boiled in it's mother's milk may not speak to me especially in my culture, but it may, very much so, to someone from a culture that practices this or did in the past. So yes I do think you have to pray and consider deeply how affects you personally. You have to study it, chew on it. Slavery, polygamy, are all things not specifically mentioned as being wrong in , yet I believe that refraining from such things, is in line with the principles of . Man is really great at inventing "new" sins. Just because they are not mentioned in the BIble, does not mean they are right. The gives us the principles, and some examples which very much were given to a specific people in a specific time, in contrast to the cultural context they were coming out of (or were supposed to). The living can just as much speak to us today in the same manner. It (He, actually) can speak to an Amazonian tribesman and an African bushman. He can even speak to a modern American about how to live as a believer should in this culture. We all have to come to terms with how G-d wants us to be different. I also know that pride is a very great sin in the eyes of G-d. Easy to start thinking you are "all that" because you happen to have been blessed with some knowledge the next person hasn't. I personally think we ALL have to claim the blood of Yeshua right up to our dying day. Hard to resolve all this. But I know there is no way I can claim in my feeble attempts to follow , that I am more worthy or more "saved" than those of my brothers who don't even use the word " " or "Yeshua" but who I know very, very well as being models of obedience to the principles of , at least most of the time. Though I have never measured what "most of the time" means.
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Post by Mark on Apr 26, 2007 5:44:20 GMT -8
To say that we are in pursuit of truth is to admit that our starting place, to some extent, was heresy. We all have a tainted perspective in our interpretation of Scripture because we read each word with a unique definition that has been developed by our culture, our upbringing, our education and our personality. Simply put: we all have a history. For most of us, that history means abandoning much of the teaching we grew up with in order to embrace the value of and the Judaic perspective of faith. Our perspective often then demonstrates the ol' pendulum swing from anti-nomianism (teaching of lawlessness) to a tenacious grasp on obedience. Therefore, in discussing our love for , we often find ourselves teaching against those who have disdained it (and often, thereby, rejected us personally). Scripture clearly says that Salvation is by grace through faith in the sacrificial work of the Messiah on our behalf. This is not simply a New Testament doctrine but a summation of and Tanakh as well. Will anyone who breaks wind up in heaven? Paul would say yes and John would say no. In Romans 7:14, Paul admits, "I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate I do." Paul has a sin problem, even presently while writing the book of Romans, very late in his life and career of ministry. John says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." It appears from these good King James texts that I've quoted, that these apostles are in contradiction. We're all sinners but if you sin then you are not really a Christian. This is the way that these texts are often used, to support varying denominational positions; if you look at the complete text (Romans 7 and 1st John 1-3) you will find that they are saying very much the same thing. Paul says, "If I do that which I would not (do the things I don't want to do), I consent unto the Law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just top forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." When we come into a intimate relationship with Messiah Yeshua, through the Holy Spirit, we are welcomed into the family of El Shaddai. Paul says that we become a new creation. Old things are passed away, all things become new." (2nd Corinthians 5:17). That doesn't mean that we are zapped and and destroyed in an instant and then recreated looking exactly the same way. It is talking about a change in relationship with the Father. When we through a rock through haShem's window; he caught us by the scruff of the neck and hauled us down to the court house. Yet, when we go there, He didn't press charges, He adopted us. We became a new creation. Now, the next morning when we woke up in clean fresh sheets and with warm full tummies (which we had never in our lives before experienced), we weren't suddenly perfect little ladies and gentlemen who had no callous ways or rough tendencies. No, there is a period of growing and refining that has to take place over time as we learn to act like sons and daughters of the King. Yet, in our relationship, we are altogether different than we were the day that we were orphans and transients. Much of the hang-up between the Christian and the Messianic Jew is that of vocabulary. There are a few doctrinal and practical barriers; but to say that the Christian outright rejects all of is an oversimplification and truly is an injustice. Most are truly more observant than they will admit. I will say that the majority of those in Christianity are not saved, rejecting the person of Messiah and obedience of His commands, rather consoling themselves in the name of Jesus as though it were a magic password to get them into heaven. At the same time, I believe that there is an equally small percentage of those who call themselves Messianic who will be in the kingdom; because their confidence is in their own course of obedience (or their perceived definition of obedience) and not in the grace and mercy granted to us through the Messiah.
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Post by messimom on Apr 26, 2007 16:41:24 GMT -8
Just one of many verses speaking of refinement and purification by fire. My understanding is that we won't have to be perfect in , just try. And before all is said and done, we'll be refined. We may come out on the other end with singed hair, but our garments will be white. Messimom
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 28, 2007 10:06:48 GMT -8
There is a difference between a sinner and one who sins. The thief at the execution had sinned, but he was "born again" (aramaic idiom for changing your way of thinking and of living) just before death. It is the same as The Rebbe's parable of the workers, when the last were paid the same wage as the first. However, I've been wondering of late, what is the minimum that a person can do and enter Heaven. We know that if you don't violate any, then you will be great and if you violate some you will be least (Matt. 5). And Ya'aqov makes it clear that if you are completely torahless you cannot enter, but is there a bottom limit? I was curious about Matt. 19:17-21. This is a bit of a different interpretation from normal, but is it possible that the commands that The Rebbe gave the young man were the minimum, and that He was telling him that if he wanted to become observant of the whole , to follow Him, and He would teach the proper halacha? I haven't had a chance yet, but I'm planning on looking in the for evidence of this idea. Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 28, 2007 12:23:18 GMT -8
Look that the Richman and Lazarus parable and the Prodigal Son.
First is sheol/hades eternal? I believe sheol is mis-interpreted to be 'Dante's Inferno' but from some study sheol isn't. It's not the lake of fire.
I did a study about eternal judgement in a Yeshiva I'm in.
The Prodigal Son is the most interesting one.
You have to go back to get the context who the parables were directed to in Luke 16.
They were directed to the Pharisee's, publican's and sinners.
The son that stayed represents the Pharisee's, the righteous ones.Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time
The Father said Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours
ALL that I have is yours? Hmmm
So from the text the righteous son who stayed is getting ALL that I have is yours?
The Prodigal Son was accepted back and there was a celebration but you really don't see anything else. He was accepted back and the son that stayed was given ALL.
Now the Richman and Lazarus parable is kind of a bit harder. For one on a personal note I have to get out of the 'Dante's Inferno' type of thinking.
The richman obeyed the law by giving food to poor Lazarus. BUT he didn't want to commune with Lazarus just like the Pharisee's didn't want to have anything to do with the publican's and sinners.
Again the richman still gave crumbs to Lazarus.
Now the question is: Just because the richman is in the 'bad part' of sheol/hades does that mean he will stay there for eternity?
I'm leaning towards no as we will all be judged. The richman did obey the law but didn't want anything to do with Lazarus.
The point is the Pharisee's weren't 'bad people' although a bit messed up with their Oral Traditions. They were righteous and obeyed the Word of G-d. BUT they didn't want anything to do with sinners and publicans'.....
So does that mean they will be in eternal damnation?
I say no.
There is a theology out there that if you don't believe you will go to hell and if you do believe you will go to Heaven.
I believe the parables in Luke 16 best knocks down that theology.
Any thoughts?
Marc
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Post by Mark on Apr 29, 2007 3:40:38 GMT -8
"Who do you call good?" Messiah might well ask. "There is none good but one, that is God." (Matthew 19:17). The Pharisees weren't "good"; just better... and thinking that is good enough. Scripture tells us plainly that to interpret in such a way that makes us appear righteous (particularly, more righteous than others) is a misapplication of . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20 KJV) Messiah says, "He that believes is not condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18). The math is pretty simple to me. "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3). "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9). The problem is the Hebrew understanding of the word faith and the Greek understanding. For the Hebrew, to hear or to believe implies obedience. In Greek, the two ideas are separate. This is explained by James. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (Jam 2:15-20 KJV) Yeshua Messiah tells us, "We will know them by their works." (Matthew 7:15-20). Think of it this way. Say, you had a son who went to Iraq. Your son didn't come back. One day, you met an Iraqi citizen and you told him, "You know, my son died for your freedom." Then the Iraqi looked you dead in the eye and said to you, "Your son died for nothing!" How would you respond? I know how I would; and it appears that God's love for His Son invokes a similar response. "You go to Hell!" Is Hell eternal? Messiah Yeshua describes it as "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46), "everlasting fire" in Matthew 25:41, in Revelation 20:10 we are told that at least the devil, the beast and the prophet will be tormented there forever and ever. Paul seems to think of it as a final destination for those who do not accept the gospel: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2Th 1:7-9 KJV)
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 29, 2007 5:35:52 GMT -8
The question, akhiy Mark, is whether this is "eternal punishment" or "punishment in eternity." I don't know which I think it is. I'm just throwing that out there.
Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 29, 2007 6:15:29 GMT -8
Just because the richman is in the 'bad' part of sheol/hades does that mean?
From some study I have found that sheol/hades isn't the 'place' for eternal punishment.
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Apr 29, 2007 8:13:57 GMT -8
Personally, I don't even think that She'ol is a place we'll "experience," per se. It is the grave. It's where we sleep until the resurrection. But I think the Lake of Fire is different.
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Post by Mark on Apr 29, 2007 16:16:38 GMT -8
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Post by vegangirl on Apr 7, 2008 18:44:58 GMT -8
I hope you all understand you have to keep all the rules also.... Christians should not drink, and smoke..Men and women should not live together if there not married and men should not be with men or women with women.. We HAVE TO LIVE A Holiness life or we will never see the Kingdom of GOD !! With out holiness no many shell see the kingdom of God!
We are living in the pagan days this gross stuff is happening all over!
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Post by Mark on Apr 8, 2008 3:44:44 GMT -8
We can't list the character traits or personal habits that we find most offensive personally and decide those things disqualify someone from the eternal kingdom of Adonai. We are stretching the text pretty far to suggest that smoking and drinking are sin. One would he hard-pressed to prove that it is wrong for a man and woman to live together without a state issued marriage license. These ideas actually add to which is as much a sin in the eyes of Adonai as any other. At the same time, there is a much larger list of things in our own lives that just aren't that bad: speaking evil of our enemies, pursuing our own interests on the Sabbath, failing to meet the needs of the hungry... the list is actually endless. In James we are told that if you keep the whole Law yest stumble in one point... interesting word, stumble. We're not talking about "in your face defiance", stumbling is accidental. Yet, James this mis-step leaves us standing guilty before Adonai as a sinner. Messiah made it so clear to us that the one is not justified who is able list his qualifications of righteousness butrather the one who recognizes his own depravity and seeks mercy in humble repentance.
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